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-   -   Winches In Hell (http://www.wranglerforum.com/f19/winches-in-hell-9296.html)

Moab Man 07-05-2007 10:50 PM

Winches In Hell
 
A while ago, back before Easter Jeep Safari, I had mentioned that the magazine I work for was going to perform a head-to-head winch test like no other to date. Many of you expressed interest in seeing how it would turn out. Well, the article is done and available for reading. Warning... it is a long article and there is some really good stuff from one of our three finalist that can be read in the vendor feedback.

So anyway, if you're considering purchasing a winch this might be interesting reading.

Oh, and did I mention it's very long?

http://www.moabjeeper.com/articles/g...?articleID=353

bluvikng 07-05-2007 11:17 PM

Thanks for the article, Moab Man. Very informative, and I can only gringe, at the thought of you all, having so much fun, testing those winches...........:D

Beowulf 07-05-2007 11:21 PM

Nice article. It sounded quite fair. I bought the superwinch epi when it first came out and have never looked back.

I am very excited by Superwinch's announcement of the new warranty. That was the only thing that bothered me about superwinch when compared to warn.

bluvikng 07-05-2007 11:24 PM

For $500.00 less than the Warn, and coming in second, it does sound like a very good winch.

Moab Man 07-05-2007 11:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bluvikng (Post 99942)
Thanks for the article, Moab Man. Very informative, and I can only gringe, at the thought of you all, having so much fun, testing those winches...........:D

14 long hours!!! It was miserable and we get to do it one more time after those that failed return their winches repaired.

Absolute Offroad 07-06-2007 12:10 AM

I think the T-maxx would have most likely been on top, but, like was said, rules are rules. It would have been a real easy fix to do, and we had used the T-Maxx winch on the RockKrawler 2-Door and it did better than my Warn. But Rules are Rules. Bottom line here is YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR.


Joe

Moab Man 07-06-2007 01:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Absolute Offroad (Post 99958)
Bottom line here is YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR.


Joe

But what do you say to the fact Chicago Electric was still in there?

It did suck to see the T-max go down the way it did for something that was not their doing. For that reason we have allowed all that fell out to repair their winches, address the problems, and send them back to us. We will then take them back to Moab for "Winches In Hell, REDEMPTION!" This will allow each of them to hopefully save face.

jjseel 07-06-2007 03:48 AM

I'm going to Harbour Freight! I only get to wheel a couple of times a year, this is right up my alley! (besides, I'm poor) If I had an unlimited budget, of course I'd go all out, nothing but the best. However, I do own one of the small Chicago Electric winches that we use to lift hay bales and for the money, I've got no gripes. We haul the big round bales with the truck and it lasted over three years for a couple hundred bucks. Stayed outside the whole time, I was suprised.

4Jeepn 07-06-2007 05:25 AM

Good info. I do have a hard time though seeing how that was hell. It was nice sunny day, no one appeared that dirty.

I think a test in perhaps less "nice conditions" might be in order. Put one of the jeeps in a mud pit up to to the top of its tires and lets see what happens when the winch is covered in water and mud. Then have it which 6 or 7 Jeeps up a muddy side hill, etc. Then up a rocky hill. heck if you don't have mud get a 5 gallon bucket mix up some up, pour it over the top and see what happens. Those are the kinds of considtions we deal with on the east coast and midwest.

bluvikng 07-06-2007 09:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4Jeepn (Post 99974)
Good info. I do have a hard time though seeing how that was hell. It was nice sunny day, no one appeared that dirty.

I think a test in perhaps less "nice conditions" might be in order. Put one of the jeeps in a mud pit up to to the top of its tires and lets see what happens when the winch is covered in water and mud.

That will be chapter II, "Winches in Slop"........:D

binaryking 07-06-2007 09:59 AM

That was a great article. I'm thinking that the Chicago Electric might be a nice winch for what I do, but I can't help but wonder if maybe you just got lucky with it. When you test again, will you use another Chicago Electric winch? Would be nice to see two different CE winches with the same results.

Moab Man 07-06-2007 09:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4Jeepn (Post 99974)
Good info. I do have a hard time though seeing how that was hell. It was nice sunny day, no one appeared that dirty.

I think a test in perhaps less "nice conditions" might be in order.


Good point and observation; which is why we put a lot of research in to what causes failures in winches prior to developing the testing. Of course dirt, water, and subsequent mud give a great visual, it's not a big problem for winches that aren't well up there in age.

The number one problem for winches, in good condition, is heat. This causes the solenoids to get hot and subsequently sticky - failure. Following sticky solenoids is the overheating of the gearing resulting in a blueing of the steel and eventual failure.

Knowing these are the predominant reasons for a winch to fail, Hells Revenge allowed the perfect opportunity to cook these winches over long distances combined with obstacles.

When we perform "Winches in Hell, REDEMPTION" we can always splash some mud for visual effect, but I assure you these winches went through hell. The manufacturers themselves readily acknowledged this as the VP's and engineers from all but two companies were present to watch their winches live or die.

Moab Man 07-06-2007 09:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by binaryking (Post 100028)
That was a great article. I'm thinking that the Chicago Electric might be a nice winch for what I do, but I can't help but wonder if maybe you just got lucky with it. When you test again, will you use another Chicago Electric winch? Would be nice to see two different CE winches with the same results.

The next time we do this, "Winches In Hell, Redemption" it will be for all that failed to get another chance after hopefully addressing the issues that took them out. I know it is a crap shoot, in part, as to who passes or fails but it is the same reality you as a consumer risk when you purchase a winch.

4point 07-06-2007 09:24 PM

Great job Moab Man. This definately effects my winch purchase decision. Did Super Winch step up just because of you tests? That is amazing if so, hell even if not its a great warranty.

Moab Man 07-07-2007 12:11 AM

Yes they did. Although we lacked mud for visual effect, they recognized that we put these winches through hell up against a winches worst enemies... repeated full length pulls, hot winch motors, hot gears, and hot solenoids.

That Superwinch warranty is presently the best in the industry.

4Jeepn 07-07-2007 05:15 AM

[QUOTE=Moab Man;100219]
Quote:

Good point and observation; which is why we put a lot of research in to what causes failures in winches prior to developing the testing. Of course dirt, water, and subsequent mud give a great visual, it's not a big problem for winches that aren't well up there in age
...



Moab is a nice visaul as well. In fact most of the stories on trail rides I see in moab (even those on your page) contain a large group of 4x4's that have no winches out there, cleary the perfect place to test them;)

Also to make the statement that water and mud are only an issue for winches of age and really only provide a great visual is a wrong unless you tested them in that condition. Deep mud in certain cases will put more load on your winch than anything out there as you not only have the weight of the 4x4 but you also must over come the force being applied by the mud to keep the 4x4 there. From what I can tell, and perhaps I am wrong.. most of the tests you did where rolling. Thus its just a rolling load, it may be heavy but its still rolling. When a winch is used on the trail it usually becuase forward progress has stopped. If it not, we usually just use a tow strap vs the winch.

Thus, I think you did an good job with the test, and I hope your next test will cover more types of trials situtions.

JCS05Rubi 07-07-2007 09:05 AM

x2 4JeepN. I blew up an 8,000# Ramsey in mud. The mud had a "suction" effecect, and the owner (Penguin_in_a_CJ) hooked it up, started pulling about 1/4 and just gave up and started smoking. The same winch had pulled out an extended cab long bed 2500 the weekend before.

Mud makes things weigh much much more than they really do :)

Moab Man 07-07-2007 11:13 AM

[QUOTE=4Jeepn;100283]
Quote:

Originally Posted by Moab Man (Post 100219)
...



Moab is a nice visaul as well. In fact most of the stories on trail rides I see in moab (even those on your page) contain a large group of 4x4's that have no winches out there, cleary the perfect place to test them;)

Also to make the statement that water and mud are only an issue for winches of age and really only provide a great visual is a wrong unless you tested them in that condition. Deep mud in certain cases will put more load on your winch than anything out there as you not only have the weight of the 4x4 but you also must over come the force being applied by the mud to keep the 4x4 there. From what I can tell, and perhaps I am wrong.. most of the tests you did where rolling. Thus its just a rolling load, it may be heavy but its still rolling. When a winch is used on the trail it usually becuase forward progress has stopped. If it not, we usually just use a tow strap vs the winch.

Thus, I think you did an good job with the test, and I hope your next test will cover more types of trials situtions.

You have valid obervations about the loads placed on a winch in the mud but the load is not a problem when used within manufacturers specs. Yes the loads were essentially rolling but that is why we did the max weight pulls which were stationary loads. Every winch was able to pull their max load with ease. Of course we could have overloaded them beyond specifications which is why I suspect the Ramsey 8000 (mentioned in another post) blew up... it was in over its max load. For that kind of a situation a snatch block should be used and we as a magazine can not test them outside of their specifications or it's no longer a valid test.

So within a companies specifications, which is ALL they are selling you, a product that can do X... water and mud are not actually a problem. This actually lends itself to the number one reason winches are returned to the manufacturer (input from them). The winch is a X,XXX lb winch and it can't pull my buddies Jeep up this incline and the Jeep only ways X. Most do not understand that the max load capability is only for the first row of cable. Nor do they understand that good sucking mud can take a winch beyond its capability specifications. Or that the loads increase as the angle increases.

As for taking them out and just breaking them... yeah we could have done that quite easily.

I'm enjoying these discussions on the winches and load pulling. This is exactly the kind of conversations the winch manufacturers themselves were hoping would be generated so that people have a better understanding of the products. And less returns on perfectly operational winches :)


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