Towing, GCWR, GVWR, etc. - Jeep Wrangler Forum
Jeep Wrangler Forum

Go Back   Jeep Wrangler Forum > JT Jeep Gladiator Forum > JT Gladiator Technical Discussion

Join Wrangler Forum Today


Like Tree2Likes
  • 2 Post By bp1
Reply
 
Thread Tools

Please support our sponsors and let them know you heard about them on WranglerForum.com
Old 06-07-2019, 10:03 AM
Thread Starter
  #1
Jeeper
 
WXman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Central Kentucky, USA
Posts: 2,688
Towing, GCWR, GVWR, etc.

Just a reminder that the "max trailer capacity" numbers that all the advertisements keep harping on are NOT the entire story.

You have to also consider the GVWR, which is the total load you can apply to the truck (all people inside, cargo, tongue weight) and the payload which are both listed on the door jamb placards.

As an example from a Rubicon model I just looked at:

OK, let's say you've got a payload of 1,148 lbs. and towing rating of 7,000 lbs.

Let's say you're going camping. Rarely does a guy camp alone, so let's say you're going to take your family. Assuming a 200 lb. driver, 150 lb. spouse, and two kids with a total weight of 200 lbs, that's a total of 550 lbs. right?

So now you've got 598 lbs. of payload remaining, because the owners manual specifically states that the driver, passengers, cargo, and tongue weight all subtract from the payload.

So now IF you do not put anything else at all in the cargo box, and your trailer applies 10% of its weight to the tongue, you can tow a 5,980 lb. trailer.

If you add, let's say, 150 lbs. worth of camping gear into the bed of the truck, then you're left with 448 lbs. of payload which, at 10% tongue weight, would cap you at a 4,480 lb. trailer.

My point being, it is VERY hard to reach the maximum trailer towing capacity (called GTW in the manual) on a Gladiator, and this is especially true of the Rubicon model. There are VERY specific conditions in which you can get anywhere close to the 7,000 lb. number, and so far Jeep has done a terrible job of explaining this in printed materials.

This applies to all trucks, but the midsize truck class seems to suffer from it the worst in my experience. The payload ratings really cap the usefulness of the truck.

__________________
Current Jeep: 2018 JLUS, Firecracker Red, 8-speed, 3.6L, 2.5" RC lift, 35" Patagonia M/T, AO Lonestar wheels, Draw-Tite hitch, CrystaLux LED headlight bulbs, M.O.R.E. dead pedal, Supernova V.4 fog bulbs
WXman is offline   Quote
Old 06-07-2019, 10:10 AM   #2
IITYWTMWYBMAB

::WF Administrator::
 
4Jeepn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Florence, KY
Posts: 12,175
Case in point of what can go wrong..

https://www.facebook.com/SevenSlotSo...2777595579206/

__________________
79.96.85.00.01.97.00.97.93.97.95.94.15
CJ.XJ.CJ. TJ. TJ.ZJ. TJ.TJ. ZJ.ZJ.YJ. XJ. JK


JKU Build Inside: Party Girl
WranglerForum: Youtube Channel https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCHO...TLdAuMbTLs_bxw

JKUR 2" Rancho Sport - BlackForest Throwback Top - Milestar 315 Patagona Mt's - Outlaw Sheriff Rims - Bushwacker Flat Fenders -
Spicer Parts F/R Diff Covers, Front Drive Shaft - 4340 Alloy Shafts- Metal Cloak Overland Rock w/Flip Step -JCR Transmission Skid- Quadratec LED Headlights- Q9500i winch
4Jeepn is offline   Quote
Old 06-08-2019, 08:16 AM   #3
Jeeper
 
uplandgunner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: WI
Posts: 236
What you say is pretty true of all trucks and manufacturers be it small, mid size or full sized. It's not only GCVW you need to look at but tongue weight, receiver class and max weight, ball receiver max weight and the ball max weight.

The tongue of the trailer and axles. There are many people towing things that exceed the capacity of what they are towing in one or more of these areas and should they have an accident a good insurance co. will notice that and you will not be covered.

Therefore manufacturers Will state GVW, GCVW, and towing capacity. They have done their homework and it's up to you to do yours on the rest of the picture.

They are not being deceptive in fact they are being as truthful as they can be.

The previous video also shows what can happen when possibly still in limits. When towing something that has that much surface area winds and wind direction can cause lots of bad things to happen. This is where common sense come into play.
__________________
ALCOHOL!!! Becuase no good story ever started with eating a salad!
uplandgunner is offline   Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 06-09-2019, 07:01 AM   #4
Jeeper
 
Lost in the woods's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Posts: 176
+1

Towing capacity has a bunch of variables, and the only constant is that advertisers like to cite the maximums. Luckily that is a constant, so if three trucks have advertised towing capacities you know that they're all theoretical maximums.

Another constant is that if you don't like the capacity, there's always a bigger, more capable vehicle available. Just because most people treat mid size and full size trucks the same doesn't mean they have the same capabilities.
__________________
Parts guy.
Lost in the woods is offline   Quote
Old 06-09-2019, 05:18 PM
Thread Starter
  #5
Jeeper
 
WXman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Central Kentucky, USA
Posts: 2,688
Quote:
Originally Posted by uplandgunner View Post

Therefore manufacturers Will state GVW, GCVW, and towing capacity. They have done their homework and it's up to you to do yours on the rest of the picture.

They are not being deceptive in fact they are being as truthful as they can be.
Yeah my main gripe right now is that Jeep has NOT stated in printed materials what the GCWR, GVWR, payload, etc. is on each model and configuration of the Gladiator.

It's not in the owners manual, it's not in the brochures the dealerships have, and I can't find it on their website anywhere.

In fact, the owners manual is so bad that is makes ZERO mention of Rubicon, Overland, or Sport, nor does it mention transmission type, axle ratio, or anything else that can affect the ratings. It simply says "with Max Towing" and "without Max Towing" which we all know is not the case, and is extremely vague.

That's why I posted this as a heads up. If you're going to buy/lease a midsize truck with plans to tow with it, make sure you watch those payload numbers and do the math!
__________________
Current Jeep: 2018 JLUS, Firecracker Red, 8-speed, 3.6L, 2.5" RC lift, 35" Patagonia M/T, AO Lonestar wheels, Draw-Tite hitch, CrystaLux LED headlight bulbs, M.O.R.E. dead pedal, Supernova V.4 fog bulbs
WXman is offline   Quote
Old 06-09-2019, 06:28 PM   #6
bp1
Supporting Member

5-Year WF Supporting Member
 
bp1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2019
Posts: 243
You should check out the 5th wheel RV forums. Everyone wants somebody to tell them its ok to tow their 5th wheel with their half ton. Ten of thousands of posts. Its just like buying a house. Don't pick the one that you have to struggle making the mortgage. Don't buy a Jeep to pull a coach that should only be pulled by a one ton dually. (nickles worth of free advice)
14rubi and Lost in the woods like this.
__________________
1992 Wrangler Sahara YJ
bp1 is online now   Quote
Old 06-09-2019, 08:07 PM   #7
Jeeper
 
Lost in the woods's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Posts: 176
Quote:
Originally Posted by WXman View Post
Yeah my main gripe right now is that Jeep has NOT stated in printed materials what the GCWR, GVWR, payload, etc. is on each model and configuration of the Gladiator.

...

In fact, the owners manual is so bad that is makes ZERO mention of Rubicon, Overland, or Sport, nor does it mention transmission type, axle ratio, or anything else that can affect the ratings. It simply says "with Max Towing" and "without Max Towing" which we all know is not the case, and is extremely vague.

If you're going to buy/lease a midsize truck with plans to tow with it, make sure you watch those payload numbers and do the math!
First, the Gladiator is a model. The only model of the Gladiator is the Gladiator. It's a Gladiator.

Moving on, the owner's manual doesn't mention the tow ratings of different color Gladiators or if hard top and soft top Gladiators are rated differently. It doesn't even mention the effect your FM radio preset selections have on the tow rating. Do you want to know why? Because paint color and musical preferences have as much bearing on towing capacity as your gear ratio or fender flares. Do you really think towing is some kind of tractor pull competition?

There's a difference between an idea and a plan. If you have plans to tow, you start the buying process by understanding that: knowing what you're going to tow, and leading with that as a requirement. It's not about Overland or Sport any more, it's about towing. If you want Max Towing, you're probably looking at a Sport. Aside from the fact that the Rubicon's more offroad primed suspension may not be the best option for towing, a Sport has a lower curb weight than the other trim levels, which is going to affect its payload capacity.

Don't blame the owner's manual for the fact that it gives answers you don't want to hear.
__________________
Parts guy.
Lost in the woods is offline   Quote
Old 06-10-2019, 06:25 AM   #8
Supporting Member

5-Year WF Supporting Member
 
jeep63's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2019
Posts: 180
You are correct in the obtaining knowledge prior to purchasing the tow vehicle is the best course of action. Too many people see/hear the commercial and fixate on the advertised max capacity and stop there.

Admittedly, I was like this when I purchased my 2009 F150. I never checked the payload sticker until I read about it on the RV forum. I was shocked that it as 920 lbs. I towed for a while like that, but then I stepped up to a 11 F250 w/2000+ payload irrc. Now, my 17 250 has 3,160 lb payload. Towing well under the rating makes the entire experience more relaxed.

I fear too many gladiators will be traveling down the road overloaded; a lot of the 'tail wagging the dog' going on.

Hopefully the buyers will do research, but probably not. Now we not only have 1/2 ton guys trying to tow more than the truck is rated, we will have mid-size guys doing the same.
__________________
10A
jeep63 is online now   Quote
Old 06-10-2019, 11:52 AM   #9
bp1
Supporting Member

5-Year WF Supporting Member
 
bp1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2019
Posts: 243
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeep63 View Post
You are correct in the obtaining knowledge prior to purchasing the tow vehicle is the best course of action. Too many people see/hear the commercial and fixate on the advertised max capacity and stop there.

Admittedly, I was like this when I purchased my 2009 F150. I never checked the payload sticker until I read about it on the RV forum. I was shocked that it as 920 lbs. I towed for a while like that, but then I stepped up to a 11 F250 w/2000+ payload irrc. Now, my 17 250 has 3,160 lb payload. Towing well under the rating makes the entire experience more relaxed.

I fear too many gladiators will be traveling down the road overloaded; a lot of the 'tail wagging the dog' going on.

Hopefully the buyers will do research, but probably not. Now we not only have 1/2 ton guys trying to tow more than the truck is rated, we will have mid-

size guys doing the same.
We have all done it. Scary.

When the dog wags its happy. When your trailer wags its poopoo in your Tommy Hilfiger boxers. A complete mess.

I was semi-addicted to the YouTube videos of waggers caught on tape good stuff. Also, the boat launch fails where the tow truck guys has to put on his scuba gear to pull your jeep and boat from the depths of the unknown.
__________________
1992 Wrangler Sahara YJ
bp1 is online now   Quote
Old 06-11-2019, 07:50 AM
Thread Starter
  #10
Jeeper
 
WXman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Central Kentucky, USA
Posts: 2,688
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lost in the woods View Post
First, the Gladiator is a model. The only model of the Gladiator is the Gladiator. It's a Gladiator.

Moving on, the owner's manual doesn't mention the tow ratings of different color Gladiators or if hard top and soft top Gladiators are rated differently. It doesn't even mention the effect your FM radio preset selections have on the tow rating. Do you want to know why? Because paint color and musical preferences have as much bearing on towing capacity as your gear ratio or fender flares. Do you really think towing is some kind of tractor pull competition?

There's a difference between an idea and a plan. If you have plans to tow, you start the buying process by understanding that: knowing what you're going to tow, and leading with that as a requirement. It's not about Overland or Sport any more, it's about towing. If you want Max Towing, you're probably looking at a Sport. Aside from the fact that the Rubicon's more offroad primed suspension may not be the best option for towing, a Sport has a lower curb weight than the other trim levels, which is going to affect its payload capacity.

Don't blame the owner's manual for the fact that it gives answers you don't want to hear.

That's a great attempt at being a smart @$$ and I'll applaud that.

Unfortunately you're wrong. Paint color and music presets don't affect towing, but MODEL differences do. And the Gladiator nameplate has more model differences than any other truck in the segment. Each has different coil springs, different axle configurations, different tires, etc. No other truck varies more across the lineup than the Gladiator. And so for that reason, it DOES matter whether you're talking Rubicon, Overland, Sport, Sport with Max Towing, etc. And, Jeep should have noted such in the manual.

Also, Sport's lower curb weight doesn't affect it's payload at all. It's got a 1,105 base payload, compared to 1,140 for Overland and 1,160 for Rubicon, despite the latter being heavier. And, Rubicon has more towing capacity than Overland, despite it's "offroad primed suspension". So your assumptions are apparently wrong.

But that's, again, the entire point of my post. FCA needs to make this specific, clear, and thorough. They need to publish materials stating all of these important numbers for each model/trim (semantics) in the lineup so people can make informed decisions.
__________________
Current Jeep: 2018 JLUS, Firecracker Red, 8-speed, 3.6L, 2.5" RC lift, 35" Patagonia M/T, AO Lonestar wheels, Draw-Tite hitch, CrystaLux LED headlight bulbs, M.O.R.E. dead pedal, Supernova V.4 fog bulbs
WXman is offline   Quote
Old 06-11-2019, 07:42 PM   #11
Jeeper
 
Lost in the woods's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Posts: 176
You get an apology, I just always see trim levels or marketing packages as the most irrelevant things there are. Jeeps, with their upgrading/modding/junkyard fixing make it even more so. The Gladiator has (of now) one engine, one radiator, one auto trans, one manual trans (each with its own radiator fan), one water pump, one set of brakes, and on and on. You can fancy it up, but it's a Gladiator underneath.

Right off the assembly line, Gladiators do make it hard to figure out towing. With 5 choices for the rear shocks (Normal duty suspension, normal duty plus suspension, performance suspension and heavy duty suspension with gas shocks, plus a couple mentions of GVW), it's hard to tell which is the heavy duty towing setup. There are some that mention 5800# GVW and one set that lists 6250# GVW, but shocks alone won't do it. The springs are worse- there are 27 choices and the codes are all either "spring- right rear" or "spring- left rear".

Jeep tried to take the guesswork out of towing by having 2 ratings: with and without max tow. There's got to be a software component to it, because aside from the crazy rear suspension menu, there isn't much visible that screams "tow package". There are no choices in cooling, not even different wiring anywhere. It doesn't seem right that simply switching out the shocks and springs will magically buy you an extra 3650# worth of towing capacity, but it doesn't make sense to me that simply doing that and flashing the stability control software could do it either. On the outside, it's hard to piece it together.

It makes perfect sense for them to conceal what makes it work, especially if software plays a big role. They don't want someone swapping a couple bits of hardware and maybe making the electronics hurt instead of help: there's a thread over in JK general discussion right now where people actually are actually maintaining that because Jeep broke down tow capacities by trim level and whatnot, simply by changing one item on the chart (the gear ratio in the diffs) you can magically add 1500# to the GCWR and graduate from the 2000# towing capacity to the 3500# capacity.

__________________
Parts guy.
Lost in the woods is offline   Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off






All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:43 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.1
User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging v3.1.0 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
vBulletin Security provided by vBSecurity v2.2.2 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

Jeep®, Wrangler, Liberty, Wagoneer, Cherokee, and Grand Cherokee are copyrighted and trademarked to Chrysler Motors LLC.
Wranglerforum.com is not in any way associated with the Chrysler Motors LLC