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Old 01-09-2019, 02:01 PM
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Rumored: Hercules model (Raptor competitor) a possibility

https://www.motortrend.com/news/jeep...p-truck-rumor/

https://www.jeepgladiatorforum.com/f...g-tested.8618/



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Old 01-09-2019, 06:20 PM   #2
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I can only imagine the price.
The Gladiator Rubicon is probably already going to hit the Raptor price.

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Old 01-09-2019, 07:01 PM   #3
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With 475 hp and 470 lb-ft on tap, the V-8 would help justify a $50,000-plus price tag
LOL

So what justifies the 4 & 6 clunker Wranglers that cost over $50k ?
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Old 01-10-2019, 08:16 AM   #4
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Seems like wishful thinking to me. Last I knew v8's wouldn't pass crash testing in Wranglers, maybe that's different with the new JT gladiators? Also, to run with a Raptor it's going to need coil overs which is going to require new mounts and other mods to the substructure. Queue another round of crash testing up. Not sure FCA is going to go through all of this to build a true raptor competitor.
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Old 01-10-2019, 01:46 PM   #5
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Its still running in the back of my head, the original the rumors were two Jeep pickups, one Wrangler based and one RAM based.


Based on that, I have to wonder if the Hercules name is a based off of the RAM?
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Old 01-10-2019, 02:41 PM   #6
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Seems like wishful thinking to me. Last I knew v8's wouldn't pass crash testing in Wranglers, maybe that's different with the new JT gladiators?
I agree. According to Automobile

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The 2020 Jeep Gladiator shares its body from the C-pillar forward with the Wrangler Unlimited, but not all of its underpinnings. While the pickup truckís front suspension is identical to the Wranglerís solid front axle with coil springs, the rear has a five-link coil-spring setup in place of trailing arms, with two upper and two lower forged steel control arms for longitudinal control, and a track bar for lateral control of the axle. The control arms are located under the frame rails, and the rear shocks are forward facing for more consistent damping, Jeep says. The rear suspension design is borrowed from the new Ram 1500 pickup, which has a wheelbase 3.2 inches longer than the Gladiatorís. For its part, Jeep says the Gladiatorís frame is unique to the model.
Which makes me think that since the front is the same as JL, that having a factory installed Hemi V8 is still a pipe dream.
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Old 01-10-2019, 02:45 PM   #7
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Its still running in the back of my head, the original the rumors were two Jeep pickups, one Wrangler based and one RAM based.


Based on that, I have to wonder if the Hercules name is a based off of the RAM?

FCA would be better off bringing the TRX concept to life. Now that liked like a true raptor competitor.


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Old 01-10-2019, 03:06 PM   #8
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Which makes me think that since the front is the same as JL, that having a factory installed Hemi V8 is still a pipe dream.
It's not a matter of space. It's easy to stuff a Hemi or LS under the hood of a Jeep.

It's also not for crash test results. The V8 still leaves room for crumple zones.

Though, as a side note, the next generation 4.0 straight six was under development but primarily axed because the very long straight six did have trouble with crash test results.

Mostly we don't get a V8 Wrangler because of CAFE regulations.

That and the fact that FCA doesn't have any engine that fits between the 3.6 Pentastar and the 5.7 Hemi. If they had something akin to the 4.3 V6 that GM uses in it's trucks, it would be a perfect upgrade to the 3.6 Pentastar without being a full on V8 (with full on V8 mileage, or lack thereof). But they don't. So we're stuck with the Pentastar.
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Old 01-11-2019, 01:32 PM   #9
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The Cummins 5.0 V8 turbo diesel that is in the titan looks like it would be an excellent choice for the Jeep lineup. From the website: 300+ hp and 500-600 lbs torque.
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Old 01-12-2019, 11:31 AM   #10
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Read yesterday that Ford is bringing the Raptor Ranger to Merica. To be frank Iím gonna wait and see it prior to Gladiator. All this hype and still no price kinda ticks me off a bit , kinda stupid in my opinion .


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Old 01-15-2019, 02:09 PM   #11
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Mostly we don't get a V8 Wrangler because of CAFE regulations.
That doesn't make any sense, the Wrangler already gets horrendous mileage. It couldn't get that much worse with a Hemi that it would drastically alter its CAFE credits. V8 mileage would be on par with the V6, largely due to MDS.

JKU auto was rated at 16/20/18
JLU auto is rated at 18/23/20

The 5.7 WK2 is 1,000 lbs heavier, and rated at 14/22/17
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Old 01-15-2019, 02:31 PM   #12
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That doesn't make any sense, the Wrangler already gets horrendous mileage. It couldn't get that much worse with a Hemi that it would drastically alter its CAFE credits. V8 mileage would be on par with the V6, largely due to MDS.

JKU auto was rated at 16/20/18
JLU auto is rated at 18/23/20

The 5.7 WK2 is 1,000 lbs heavier, and rated at 14/22/17
I agree with you. Having owned a 2015 JKU and a 2017 Dodge Challenger with the 5.7. Both weighing pretty much the same, I got 1-2 MPG more in the city with the hemi. About 5 MPG more with the hemi on the highway. In city, sport mode ( MDS is off ) was always on.

Mileage would have been better on the hemi, but I drive with a heavy foot most of the time.
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Old 01-15-2019, 02:35 PM   #13
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Mostly we don't get a V8 Wrangler because of CAFE regulations.

That and the fact that FCA doesn't have any engine that fits between the 3.6 Pentastar and the 5.7 Hemi. If they had something akin to the 4.3 V6 that GM uses in it's trucks, it would be a perfect upgrade to the 3.6 Pentastar without being a full on V8 (with full on V8 mileage, or lack thereof). But they don't. So we're stuck with the Pentastar.
You do realize the 5.7 with MDS would get about the same mileage as the pentastar, right?
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Old 01-15-2019, 02:41 PM   #14
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I agree with you. Having owned a 2015 JKU and a 2017 Dodge Challenger with the 5.7. Both weighing pretty much the same, I got 1-2 MPG more in the city with the hemi. About 5 MPG more with the hemi on the highway. In city, sport mode ( MDS is off ) was always on.

Mileage would have been better on the hemi, but I drive with a heavy foot most of the time.
Your Challenger has tremendously better aerodynamics. And aerodynamics are as important, if not more so, than weight when determining mileage. Especially on the highway.

The 3.6 in the Challenger is rated somewhere near 5 MPG better than the 5.7 V8. There's no reason to think that you wouldn't get a similar drop in the Wrangler.

Combine the aerodynamics of a Wrangler with a thirsty V8 and you end up with lower economy numbers. That's why we don't get a factory Hemi in the Wrangler.
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Old 01-15-2019, 03:26 PM   #15
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Your Challenger has tremendously better aerodynamics. And aerodynamics are as important, if not more so, than weight when determining mileage. Especially on the highway.

The 3.6 in the Challenger is rated somewhere near 5 MPG better than the 5.7 V8. There's no reason to think that you wouldn't get a similar drop in the Wrangler.

Combine the aerodynamics of a Wrangler with a thirsty V8 and you end up with lower economy numbers. That's why we don't get a factory Hemi in the Wrangler.

I agree with you on the aerodynamics, then you also have gearing, but I'm also going off my actual numbers from owning both motors. I'm not going by the sticker that says you'll get this much city and highway. We all know those things are not always accurate. I drove the hemi with a heavier foot than what I did with the pentastar. That's a few more MPG right there. Keep sport mode off and that's even more. I stand by what I said that they both will have similar MPG.

Or if you want to play with the same bodies. According to the sticker on a Ram 1500.

16/23 for the V6
15/21 for the 5.7

Both 4WD and same cab/box size.

17/21 for the wrangler.
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Old 01-15-2019, 03:53 PM   #16
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Old 01-15-2019, 04:16 PM   #17
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I agree with you on the aerodynamics, then you also have gearing, but I'm also going off my actual numbers from owning both motors.
Fuel mileage is about a lot more than just the motor. There is no way to compare the two motors unless they're in the same model of car and driven in a similar fashion. Just because you drive a car with one engine and a Jeep with the other doesn't mean anything. Now, if you had two challengers, one with each engine, that would be worth looking at.

And while the EPA numbers are never accurate, they are measured with the same test. So a Challenger with a V6 is tested exactly the same as one with a V8. In the real world, the Hemi gets somewhere near 4-5 mpg less than the Pentastar. You get the same kind of difference in the Grand Cherokee. From 21 to 17 (EPA numbers). The only thing that will pull the numbers closer (like in the Ram) is when the smaller motor isn't really enough engine for the vehicle it's in and you have to up the axle gearing just to get it to move. CJs, YJs, and TJs saw that with the 2.5 4 cyl vs the straight 6. They bumped the axle gears with the 4 banger up to 4.10's just to get it to be able to move. And that negated any mileage advantage from the smaller engine. Not by making the bigger engine better but by pulling the smaller engine down.

There is no reason to think that a Hemi in the Wrangler wouldn't also lose 4 or 5 MPG to the V6.


What FCA really needs is to punch out the Pentastar to around 4.2-4.3 liters and put in some cams that give it better low and midrange power to put in the trucks and Jeeps. Who cares about peak horsepower up at the top end of the RPM range in a truck? Make power where the engine needs it and you'd see better power for all around driving without losing much mileage (if not gaining just a little because you don't need to push it as hard).
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Old 01-15-2019, 04:37 PM   #18
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Fuel mileage is about a lot more than just the motor. There is no way to compare the two motors unless they're in the same model of car and driven in a similar fashion. Just because you drive a car with one engine and a Jeep with the other doesn't mean anything. Now, if you had two challengers, one with each engine, that would be worth looking at.

And while the EPA numbers are never accurate, they are measured with the same test. So a Challenger with a V6 is tested exactly the same as one with a V8. In the real world, the Hemi gets somewhere near 4-5 mpg less than the Pentastar. You get the same kind of difference in the Grand Cherokee. From 21 to 17 (EPA numbers). The only thing that will pull the numbers closer (like in the Ram) is when the smaller motor isn't really enough engine for the vehicle it's in and you have to up the axle gearing just to get it to move. CJs, YJs, and TJs saw that with the 2.5 4 cyl vs the straight 6. They bumped the axle gears with the 4 banger up to 4.10's just to get it to be able to move. And that negated any mileage advantage from the smaller engine. Not by making the bigger engine better but by pulling the smaller engine down.

There is no reason to think that a Hemi in the Wrangler wouldn't also lose 4 or 5 MPG to the V6.


What FCA really needs is to punch out the Pentastar to around 4.2-4.3 liters and put in some cams that give it better low and midrange power to put in the trucks and Jeeps. Who cares about peak horsepower up at the top end of the RPM range in a truck? Make power where the engine needs it and you'd see better power for all around driving without losing much mileage (if not gaining just a little because you don't need to push it as hard).
Another thing to add. The pentastar in the Wrangler, Ram, and Challenger are all tuned differently as well. 283-305 HP. Same as The Hemi. 370-395 HP. Gears are all over the place as well. I had 3.73 in the JKU and 3.09 in the Challenger.

I'd love to see something similar to a 4.3 in the Wrangler.. Bring back the 3.73 gear option as well.
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Old 01-15-2019, 04:52 PM   #19
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Another thing to add. The pentastar in the Wrangler, Ram, and Challenger are all tuned differently as well. 283-305 HP. Same as The Hemi. 370-395 HP. Gears are all over the place as well. I had 3.73 in the JKU and 3.09 in the Challenger.

I'd love to see something similar to a 4.3 in the Wrangler.. Bring back the 3.73 gear option as well.
Getting a vehicle through emissions certification is a lot of work. And they save money by putting a nearly identical engine in multiple vehicles. That way, they know they're at least going to be close when it comes to passing certification tests and they only need to make small tweaks. Once they get a recipe that meets the standards, you save a lot of money by just picking it up and dropping it into the next vehicle with as few changes as possible.

Most of the engine (i.e. the heads, cams, etc) are all probably identical between all of them. The intake tube and exhaust pipes have to be different to fit in different vehicles. And those have an effect on peak numbers. They might tweak the fuel and spark tables just a little between them as well but probably not very much. If you look at the dyno charts between them they will look very similar.
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Old 01-15-2019, 05:17 PM   #20
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Getting a vehicle through emissions certification is a lot of work. And they save money by putting a nearly identical engine in multiple vehicles. That way, they know they're at least going to be close when it comes to passing certification tests and they only need to make small tweaks. Once they get a recipe that meets the standards, you save a lot of money by just picking it up and dropping it into the next vehicle with as few changes as possible.

Most of the engine (i.e. the heads, cams, etc) are all probably identical between all of them. The intake tube and exhaust pipes have to be different to fit in different vehicles. And those have an effect on peak numbers. They might tweak the fuel and spark tables just a little between them as well but probably not very much. If you look at the dyno charts between them they will look very similar.
Fuel requirements is also something to think about as well. 89 recommended octane in the 5.7 hemi. 87 in the pentastar.
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Old 01-15-2019, 07:46 PM   #21
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Fuel mileage is about a lot more than just the motor. There is no way to compare the two motors unless they're in the same model of car and driven in a similar fashion. Just because you drive a car with one engine and a Jeep with the other doesn't mean anything. Now, if you had two challengers, one with each engine, that would be worth looking at.

And while the EPA numbers are never accurate, they are measured with the same test. So a Challenger with a V6 is tested exactly the same as one with a V8. In the real world, the Hemi gets somewhere near 4-5 mpg less than the Pentastar. You get the same kind of difference in the Grand Cherokee. From 21 to 17 (EPA numbers). The only thing that will pull the numbers closer (like in the Ram) is when the smaller motor isn't really enough engine for the vehicle it's in and you have to up the axle gearing just to get it to move. CJs, YJs, and TJs saw that with the 2.5 4 cyl vs the straight 6. They bumped the axle gears with the 4 banger up to 4.10's just to get it to be able to move. And that negated any mileage advantage from the smaller engine. Not by making the bigger engine better but by pulling the smaller engine down.

There is no reason to think that a Hemi in the Wrangler wouldn't also lose 4 or 5 MPG to the V6.


What FCA really needs is to punch out the Pentastar to around 4.2-4.3 liters and put in some cams that give it better low and midrange power to put in the trucks and Jeeps. Who cares about peak horsepower up at the top end of the RPM range in a truck? Make power where the engine needs it and you'd see better power for all around driving without losing much mileage (if not gaining just a little because you don't need to push it as hard).
For comparison and to help your point, I have a 2015 JKU that started with the 3.6L manual transmission. It averaged about 15 mpg on the highway and 13.5 in the city. Running regular gas.

It now has a 6.2L LS with 6 speed automatic transmission. It now averages about 11.5 mpg on the highway and 9.5 in the city. Running premium gas.

*4.10 gears before and after.
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Old 01-15-2019, 08:21 PM   #22
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For comparison and to help your point, I have a 2015 JKU that started with the 3.6L manual transmission. It averaged about 15 mpg on the highway and 13.5 in the city. Running regular gas.

It now has a 6.2L LS with 6 speed automatic transmission. It now averages about 11.5 mpg on the highway and 9.5 in the city. Running premium gas.

*4.10 gears before and after.
Helps my point as well. The 5.7 would be even closer to the stock numbers, especially with the 8 speed.
Still, only a 4 mpg difference in the city and 3.5 highway. Not bad at all with that motor.
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Old 01-15-2019, 08:51 PM   #23
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Helps my point as well. The 5.7 would be even closer to the stock numbers, especially with the 8 speed.
Still, only a 4 mpg difference in the city and 3.5 highway. Not bad at all with that motor.
Except that, by comparison, LS motors tend to be more efficient than an equivalent Hemi.

BTW, my 5.7l LS1 equipped 2004 GTO would get in the high 20's for mileage. Running 65 on the freeway, I could easily get the computer to show 29+. Calculating actual fuel consumed it was closer to 27. But it blows away any version of the 5.7 Hemi.
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Old 01-16-2019, 08:01 AM   #24
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Except that, by comparison, LS motors tend to be more efficient than an equivalent Hemi.

BTW, my 5.7l LS1 equipped 2004 GTO would get in the high 20's for mileage. Running 65 on the freeway, I could easily get the computer to show 29+. Calculating actual fuel consumed it was closer to 27. But it blows away any version of the 5.7 Hemi.

Post 2 and 3 both with the 5.7, similar mpg, and state better mpg than the above listed 6.2. Add today's 8 speed and it will be better.

https://forum.aev-conversions.com/fo...real-world-mpg
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Old 01-16-2019, 10:21 AM   #25
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Post 2 and 3 both with the 5.7, similar mpg, and state better mpg than the above listed 6.2. Add today's 8 speed and it will be better.

https://forum.aev-conversions.com/fo...real-world-mpg
Without knowing the details of those one-off installations, it's impossible to say for sure.

What emissions equipment are they running (or not)? How have they tuned their engines (including things that affect emissions compliance and certification)? How do they drive their Jeeps?

If you don't live in an area where they test emissions, you can get away with a lot that the factory can't do. You can gut the cat or even run without one. You can remap the fuel tables, you can disable O2 sensors needed for emissions compliance. You can set the fuel tables to run lean in cruise mode (upping the NOx emissions), and all kinds of stuff.

And you can flash in the "emissions tune" when you go in for testing but switch back to another one for daily use. Takes about 10-15 minutes to do that on modern vehicle computers.

How do we know what they did or didn't do?

But here's the kicker.

My basically stock 3.6 running 4.56 gears and 35" tires with a soft top and using the same computer fuel economy display as the guy in post #2 gets around 18-19 on the freeway. So I'm a good 3-4 MPG better than even an aftermarket install.



Bottom line that you will never get around: A Hemi gets lower MPG than a Pentastar in a Wrangler and that's why the factory doesn't offer it.
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Old 01-16-2019, 10:51 AM   #26
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Without knowing the details of those one-off installations, it's impossible to say for sure.

What emissions equipment are they running (or not)? How have they tuned their engines (including things that affect emissions compliance and certification)? How do they drive their Jeeps?

If you don't live in an area where they test emissions, you can get away with a lot that the factory can't do. You can gut the cat or even run without one. You can remap the fuel tables, you can disable O2 sensors needed for emissions compliance. You can set the fuel tables to run lean in cruise mode (upping the NOx emissions), and all kinds of stuff.

And you can flash in the "emissions tune" when you go in for testing but switch back to another one for daily use. Takes about 10-15 minutes to do that on modern vehicle computers.

How do we know what they did or didn't do?

But here's the kicker.

My basically stock 3.6 running 4.56 gears and 35" tires with a soft top and using the same computer fuel economy display as the guy in post #2 gets around 18-19 on the freeway. So I'm a good 3-4 MPG better than even an aftermarket install.



Bottom line that you will never get around: A Hemi gets lower MPG than a Pentastar in a Wrangler and that's why the factory doesn't offer it.
Now you're just trying to split hairs and going a completely different direction. I don't see you trying to pick apart the guy who posted about the 6.2 and his "one off" install, emissions etc. If you're going to play favorites, make it less noticeable.

Have you not read anything I posted? NOWHERE did I say the 5.7 would get better MPG. I only said similar.


Those are not one off installs. There are 2 people in that thread with the same 5.7 and both motors are getting damn near the same mileage as each other.

I'm done trying to explain something to a brick wall.
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Old 01-16-2019, 11:08 AM   #27
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Bottom line that you will never get around: A Hemi gets lower MPG than a Pentastar in a Wrangler and that's why the factory doesn't offer it.
So? The 5.7 Hemi gets less mileage than the 3.6 in all of its applications. Yet FCA offers it. The 6.4 Hemi gets even worse mileage than the 5.7, but it's offered.

Going by EPA figures to keep all variables the same. The 5.7 gets comparable mileage to the 3.6

Simply, MPG isn't the answer to why it's not offered.
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Old 01-16-2019, 11:16 AM   #28
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Have you not read anything I posted?
Hello pot. Meet kettle.

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NOWHERE did I say the 5.7 would get better MPG.
I never said anything even close to hinting that you were trying to even imply this. I agree. You never said the Hemi would get better mileage. I have no idea why you brought this up.

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I only said similar.
And no matter how many times you say this, you are wrong. The mileage numbers are off by a lot more than you want them to be. You can throw out of context anecdotes at it all you want but the difference in mileage is more than you want it to be.
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Old 01-16-2019, 11:29 AM   #29
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Old 01-16-2019, 11:40 AM   #30
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Going by EPA figures to keep all variables the same. The 5.7 gets comparable mileage to the 3.6
That's fine with me. Here you go.

These numbers are from https://www.fueleconomy.gov so feel free to check them yourself.

2019 Grand Cherokee 4wd:

3.6: 18/25/21
5.7: 14/22/17

Net difference: 4/3/4
Percent drop: 22%/12%/19%

2019 Dodge Challenger

3.6: 19/30/23
5.7: 16/26/19

Net difference: 3/4/4
Percent drop: 6%/13%/17%

2019 Ram 1500 2WD (I used the "classic" because the others have a "mild hybrid" design that affects the comparison)

3.6: 17/25/20
5.7: 15/22/17

Net difference: 2/3/3
Percent drop: 12%/12%/15%



Now I don't know about you but with most of the numbers showing double digit average percentage drops in mileage, I have no idea how you can support the argument that "The 5.7 gets comparable mileage to the 3.6". There is no comparison. It's a substantial drop off everywhere you see the same engine in the same vehicle.
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