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Old 11-26-2014, 09:15 PM
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Headers better investment than a CAI?

I don't know if headers are available for the 3.6 yet, but I know there's headers for the 3.8 from Rugged Ridge.

In my opinion, the $300 to $400 invested in a "quality" cold air intake system would be better spent on installing headers, which should cost the same?

I'm assuming a person would definitely see real world results with both HP and mileage after headers, at least from my experience with cars. You have to torque them every now & then, at least on the old small block ones you do.

Anyone have any real world experience with this on Jeeps?

I'm thinking (typing) out loud, I don't have any plans to modify my stock exhaust on my 3.6, but was curious.

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Old 11-26-2014, 09:27 PM   #2
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Well not to destroy your dreams thoughts and ambitions, but if you have found a way to get headers on the 3.6 pentastar, please let everyone chyrsler/fiat wide know. The engines have an exhaust manifold that is one cast onto the engine itself.

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Old 11-26-2014, 09:46 PM   #3
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these arent racecars, spend your money on things outside of the engine bay
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Old 11-26-2014, 10:29 PM
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So then we port and polish! :-) I didn't know that, looking at the pentastar site they said there were 32 different exhaust manifold combinations... and the top stock Pentastar used on the Charger puts out 305 bhp!

Is this an industry first for a modern passenger engine? Having the manifolds cast in the block?

I'm wondering if there are any "heavy duty" parts that could be swapped, or if the Dodge commercial van Pentastars have exactly the same configuration.

I really think this engine is going to have a huge aftermarket following.

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Old 11-26-2014, 10:44 PM
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This is a link for anyone wanting to read about the 3.6's...

Pentastars - advanced V6 engines from Chrysler (and Mercedes)

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Old 11-26-2014, 11:16 PM   #6
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I put ARH Longtube headers ( $1500 )on my 2011 ram crew cab hemi on 35s, along with vararam intake, 85mm TB, 180TS, trinity HEMIFEVER tuned. And noticed a huge difference! Ma6be around 500hp? I beat a new challenger RT on a freeway pull 70 -110mph then it flew past me. And a 08 mustang GT, but he never caught me. Got it to 135mph before. But headers made the engine noise louder, and was always paranoid about leaks. Always had problems with the tuner resetting after the dealership oil change visits. Etc. And it took me like 20 hours to install. Overall I'd say for the jeep I'd leave it alone unless you plan on tinkering with it.
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Old 11-27-2014, 12:02 AM   #7
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I put ARH Longtube headers ( $1500 )on my 2011 ram crew cab hemi on 35s, along with vararam intake, 85mm TB, 180TS, trinity HEMIFEVER tuned. And noticed a huge difference! Ma6be around 500hp? I beat a new challenger RT on a freeway pull 70 -110mph then it flew past me. And a 08 mustang GT, but he never caught me. Got it to 135mph before. But headers made the engine noise louder, and was always paranoid about leaks. Always had problems with the tuner resetting after the dealership oil change visits. Etc. And it took me like 20 hours to install. Overall I'd say for the jeep I'd leave it alone unless you plan on tinkering with it.
As a Challenger owner this thread cracks me up because its so full of crap. Sorry. 500HP from a 5.7 with bolt-ons? Funny.

Thanks for the entertainment, though.
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Old 11-27-2014, 01:31 AM
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Yeah, sorry for stirring up some s**t here, guess it would have been better to discuss "plasti-dip" or an "acoustic mod" with crap bought from a fabric store.

In defense of the gentelman with the Dodge Ram, according to "allpar.com" a stock 5.7 first gen new hemi does 345 bhp, with 390 bhp for the second gen in Dodge Ram... 375 bhp for an 09 Challenger R/T.

110 extra horses from bolt-ons in his Ram? I think it's possible.

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Old 11-27-2014, 09:26 AM   #9
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Yeah, sorry for stirring up some s**t here, guess it would have been better to discuss "plasti-dip" or an "acoustic mod" with crap bought from a fabric store. In defense of the gentelman with the Dodge Ram, according to "allpar.com" a stock 5.7 first gen new hemi does 345 bhp, with 390 bhp for the second gen in Dodge Ram... 375 bhp for an 09 Challenger R/T. 110 extra horses from bolt-ons in his Ram? I think it's possible. Jason
It's not possible, not even close. Not to mention 35s add tons of weight and rolling resistance. People seem to forget about science and power:weight ratio as well.

A lot of people like to do "ricer math" and stack potential gains.

Headers 35hp
Intake 15hp
Tuner 30hp
TB spacer 15hp
Exhaust 25hp.

So 35+15+30+15+25 = 120HP gain, right? Wrong, it doesn't work that way. Some mods help others work better, but in the end with all of those you may get an additional 30-35hp to the wheels which is about 40hp at the crank. Not pocket change, but far away from the 100+ gain claimed.
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Old 11-27-2014, 10:51 AM
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"port & polish" that'll do it ;-)

All kidding aside, from what I've seen and read about headers the range is 30 to 70 gain (for passenger vehicles), but yes it's true that you can't add all the mods up. Each hp claim from the aftermarket maker is usually done individually on stock equipment, so when you install everything, the gains are definitely affected. That 30 to 70 for the single header install is the reason why I felt that it was a possibility.

I'm still wondering if there are stronger cranks or ??? available to the commercial Dodge van Pentastar engines.

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Old 11-27-2014, 11:47 AM   #11
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Why do you need a strong crank? It can handle 6lbs of boost and maybe up to 8-10 all say long. For the buck FI seems to be the way to go here.

The question that yet to be answered is just what the stock system in capable of. What is the limitation of the intake system and the exhust system. How much air can we actually pump through the system. Where is the great tuning software, HP tuners, EFI live. With out it we would never get everything out of the engine.

So lets look at this from what we know. The stock intake system works, as far as we know we are not losing anything because of its design. Sure a true cold air intake will would allow for a bit more timing. But then again that power would felt mostly at higher RPMs. We could install a freer flowing exhust system by installing high flow cats, a tuned H or X pipe and a less restrictive muffler. Again most of this gain would be at the higher RPMs.

Assuming we do all that and we had good tuning software, switched to 92 octane fuel and added timing we might add 30hp. Cost, $300 for cold air, $250 for High flow cats, $500 cat back system. We are at $1000 and we don't even have a tuner yet.

Lets port and polish, well that is another $700 not counting the R&R of the heads. That might gain another 15hp but agin at the upper RPM range. All total we will be well over $2000 for at best 45hp and most of that not usable except at upper rpm ranges.

If we had some cam options all of this might make sense. But for $5k we can go FI and get power across the board. Most of the time I don't see more than 3K rpms, off road maybe 4K. About the only time I get above that is getting on the freeway. So any power increase I would want to see has to be at that level.

The reality is we don't have any cheap power upgrades at this time.
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Old 11-27-2014, 07:16 PM   #12
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There are a thousand threads explaining exactly why a CAI on this engine in this vehicle is a waste of money. The best dyno "proof" I've seen of an increase was about 5 hp above 5500 rpm or something equally ridiculous. You're never going to see that power. No headers, as mentioned. Dont both with a throttle body spacer. Those are really only effective with a carbed engine, by helping avoid gas in the bowls boiling and by providing more time for the air and fuel to mix effectively. That takes place in the cylinder now, so a spacer is worthless. Forced induction is basically the only way to go. TerryC6 nailed it. The "problem" is that Chrysler gave us a decent engine right out of the factory without shortchanging us on power and forcing us to find it in the aftermarket.

Is that a Vette reference by the way? I've got a C2.
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Old 11-27-2014, 08:33 PM   #13
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Gotta love the bench racers that fail to account for air resistance, rolling resistance, drag coefficients, mass, internal friction, varying efficiencies at RPM, etc.
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Old 11-27-2014, 08:59 PM   #14
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Boost is definitely the way to go for the best bang for your buck and being usable power. I get the giggles when I see a CAI on a Jeep. The pentastar is a speed density EFI system, so installing a CAI, which should really be called a hot air intake, is completely useless since the computer would never really know its there.

And AlmostSleezy I gotta call BS on the challenger win. I test drove a new RT and holy hell its fast. Im a hardcore Mustang guy, but damn those cars can haul. Only gripe with that car it needs to be a 4 speed, the 6 speed is way to short. Never got to enjoy the pull as much
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Old 11-27-2014, 10:16 PM
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TerryC6!!! That post was music! Great info!

2five22 - Racing Jeeps would be very dangerous, my experience with racing is mainly open wheel (micros and midgets), and we own a machine shop & foundry... bench racing would be earlier when my family did r/c races when my brother and I were little, it was a lot of fun!

The engineer in me is always wanting to know more, find out how things can be improved upon, etc. Pentastar is INCREDIBLE out of the box... 285 HP and an excellent torque band!

I guess if we can discuss swapping shocks out of a Rubicon to put in a Sahara, countless threads on lifts and wheels and tires, then I don't see the harm in discussion of "tougher" components from commercial Pentastars (if there are such things) for fun... It's fun for me, just wanted to discuss with people who are like-minded. It's not really about racing, it's about performance and efficiency.

I love my Jeep :-)

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Old 11-27-2014, 10:24 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by AlmostSleezy View Post
I put ARH Longtube headers ( $1500 )on my 2011 ram crew cab hemi on 35s, along with vararam intake, 85mm TB, 180TS, trinity HEMIFEVER tuned. And noticed a huge difference! Ma6be around 500hp? I beat a new challenger RT on a freeway pull 70 -110mph then it flew past me. And a 08 mustang GT, but he never caught me. Got it to 135mph before. But headers made the engine noise louder, and was always paranoid about leaks. Always had problems with the tuner resetting after the dealership oil change visits. Etc. And it took me like 20 hours to install. Overall I'd say for the jeep I'd leave it alone unless you plan on tinkering with it.
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As a Challenger owner this thread cracks me up because its so full of crap. Sorry. 500HP from a 5.7 with bolt-ons? Funny.

Thanks for the entertainment, though.
All you can do is laugh and let em carry on thinking a 5.7l hemi crew cab truck with a couple little bolt ons is a 500hp race truck
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Old 11-27-2014, 10:40 PM   #17
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I put ARH Longtube headers ( $1500 )on my 2011 ram crew cab hemi on 35s, along with vararam intake, 85mm TB, 180TS, trinity HEMIFEVER tuned. And noticed a huge difference! Ma6be around 500hp? I beat a new challenger RT on a freeway pull 70 -110mph then it flew past me. And a 08 mustang GT, but he never caught me. Got it to 135mph before. But headers made the engine noise louder, and was always paranoid about leaks. Always had problems with the tuner resetting after the dealership oil change visits. Etc. And it took me like 20 hours to install. Overall I'd say for the jeep I'd leave it alone unless you plan on tinkering with it.
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As a Challenger owner this thread cracks me up because its so full of crap. Sorry. 500HP from a 5.7 with bolt-ons? Funny.

Thanks for the entertainment, though.
All you can do is laugh and let em carry on thinking a 5.7l hemi crew cab truck with a couple little bolt ons is a 500hp race truck

I wasn't bragging about 500hp, it was a rough question. Since ARH has dyno charts showing 21 hp 30 torque gains. And I've seen Diablo trinity HEMIFEVER charts of 15+. So all shrugs.. Never said I dyno'd it, nor did I mean to sound like it was the baddest bitch out there. Meant for it to be that doing all that was fun and a huge improvement but overall wouldn't do it again. But let's see your bad boy challenger. I'm sure it's highly modded that you did yourself too.
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Old 11-27-2014, 10:54 PM
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AlmostSleezy, it sounds like you put a lot of work into that truck.

I feel like an idiot for not knowing about the cast-in manifolds on the 3.6

The main reason for my post were for people who were considering a CAI, and my thoughts were that the money would be better spent on headers for performance gains... since headers do not apply to the 3.6 (now I know), not much point in my thread. And when I said "performance" I guess I should have said "efficiency."

I have since read on another thread that modifications to the "hot side" would require recalibration and that there seem to be opinions on the cast-in manifolds transferring heat to the heads.

Your truck sounds like it can really go! Have you guys ever seen the diesel trucks on the drags blowing away mustangs on Youtube?

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Old 11-27-2014, 11:12 PM   #19
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I wasn't bragging about 500hp, it was a rough question. Since ARH has dyno charts showing 21 hp 30 torque gains. And I've seen Diablo trinity HEMIFEVER charts of 15+. So all shrugs.. Never said I dyno'd it, nor did I mean to sound like it was the baddest bitch out there. Meant for it to be that doing all that was fun and a huge improvement but overall wouldn't do it again. But let's see your bad boy challenger. I'm sure it's highly modded that you did yourself too.
Before it was totaled earlier this month, it was a 2011 6-speed with 3.92 rear that I had it set up with coilovers, front and rear braces, headers, 180 tstat, Solo cat back, tuned by Johan and I used it for track days a few times a year. 392s would pull on me slightly on the straights but they couldn't touch me in the corners, I had consistently faster lap times overall. It moved quite well for being a "pig."

Headers and a decent CMR tune are good for about 36hp or so, like I said the mods work together but you can't stack the typically-overrated claims from the parts companies and you can't take 30hp for headers and then add 15hp from the tune on top of that to come up with a 45hp gain, it doesn't work that way. We all wish it did, though. A custom CMR tune makes the biggest improvement, IMO, because it's able to add power and throttle response throughout the RPM range. The HEMIs are also notorious for heat soak and power loss in warm/hot weather, the tstat and tune really helped overcome that for me as well.

In any event, I'm glad you enjoyed your truck, that's what really matters.
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Old 11-27-2014, 11:13 PM   #20
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AlmostSleezy, it sounds like you put a lot of work into that truck.

I feel like an idiot for not knowing about the cast-in manifolds on the 3.6

The main reason for my post were for people who were considering a CAI, and my thoughts were that the money would be better spent on headers for performance gains... since headers do not apply to the 3.6 (now I know), not much point in my thread. And when I said "performance" I guess I should have said "efficiency."

I have since read on another thread that modifications to the "hot side" would require recalibration and that there seem to be opinions on the cast-in manifolds transferring heat to the heads.

Your truck sounds like it can really go! Have you guys ever seen the diesel trucks on the drags blowing away mustangs on Youtube?

Jason
Thanks bud. Loved modding it! I'm so nervous about programmers now though, I don't even have one in my jeep to recalibrate the tires ha.

Youtu e "AlmostSleezy" and I should still have some videos of the truck. The popular video I just installed the headers and didn't have it tuned yet so it ran bad. But wanted you to hear the sound
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Old 11-27-2014, 11:13 PM   #21
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I wouldnt touch too much out the manifolds, everything already so condensed there wouldnt be much meat to start removing to open up the ports. As far as the rest of the motor, Chrysler did an excellent job designing this motor. It was orginally designed to be a boosted motor so the internals are already stout enough to handle some psi. You could steal parts off a Challenger but I think the EFI wouldnbt know what to do with it and just run less than stock unless you brought the computer over with the parts but everthing is tied through the computer on the Jeep so your jeep options wouldnt work like your disco and lockers.

In my opinion, more efficiency mean boost. Im a turbo guy (helping my bro build a turbo mustang at the moment) but Id go supercharger. Too much piping in a turbo system to be offroading with
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Old 11-27-2014, 11:44 PM   #22
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There are a thousand threads explaining exactly why a CAI on this engine in this vehicle is a waste of money. The best dyno "proof" I've seen of an increase was about 5 hp above 5500 rpm or something equally ridiculous. You're never going to see that power. No headers, as mentioned. Dont both with a throttle body spacer. Those are really only effective with a carbed engine, by helping avoid gas in the bowls boiling and by providing more time for the air and fuel to mix effectively. That takes place in the cylinder now, so a spacer is worthless. Forced induction is basically the only way to go. TerryC6 nailed it. The "problem" is that Chrysler gave us a decent engine right out of the factory without shortchanging us on power and forcing us to find it in the aftermarket.

Is that a Vette reference by the way? I've got a C2.
While I agree in general with your post I disagree with your throttle body stance, not as it applies to the Jeep though.

You point of how a TB was used in only one answer and primarily used by the factory. In the hot rod world they are primarily used to increase runner length which increases torque. This is especially true when we are using single plane manifolds as they tend to have very short runners give up a lot of torque compared to there dual plane brothers.

Now on to fuel injected vehicles. Most vehicles today are still port injection, including the Jeep. This is not a Direct injection motor, though I wish it was. This means that intake, throttle bodies, intake manifold and yes throttle body spacers can impact performance. If we take a C6 Corvette you will find all those parts work when combined with a tune and provide power across the band. But there has been hundreds of thousand of dollars spent on R&D by the aftermarket companies where the LS series of engines are concerned. And thousand of hours spent on the track proven them.

We won't see that for the Jeep. If you want a cold air, get a snorkel. And if you want more power you need to go Forced Injection.
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Old 11-28-2014, 09:20 AM   #23
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You're right, and I didn't go into detail at all. That certainly wasn't an across-the-board condemnation of it, but a spacer alone isn't going to help most engines. Even in an LS, if you want to get anything noticeable out of it you have to combine it with other mods. It's a complimentary part, not a stand-alone, 99% of the time.
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Old 11-28-2014, 10:07 AM   #24
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Actually with the computer controlled engines nothing works without a tuner. A good tuner alone can eek out 10-30hp on Corvettes and Mustangs in stock form and that is normally across the RPM range. It must be a nightmare to try and tune a Jeep with cam phasing.
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Old 11-28-2014, 11:23 AM   #25
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From what ive read, the ECU in the Jeeps for one are one of the hardest to hack/program let alone it being a speed density system. Alot more if then statements than a MAF system Ford and Chevy uses

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