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Old 10-04-2019, 03:39 PM
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Bare with me

Ok I changed my steering stabilizer from stock to a mild upgrade to Daystar KUO1019. And now for the first time I am experiencing the death wobble on freeway. Before this I put on a 2” coil spacer and had it aligned and had no problem, prior to the stabilizer upgrade. Any Ideas?

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Old 10-04-2019, 04:34 PM   #2
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Tell me about your tires, that's the first place the wobble starts. They could need a re-balance, or if they are close to their time for replacement. And by death wobble, is it a shimmy and shake, or an "oh my god, I'm donna die unless I stop right now" kinda wobble?

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Old 10-04-2019, 04:40 PM   #3
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The first thing to ask is was the wobble so violent and complete that you had to bring the Jeep to a stop or near stop? Or did it just shake pretty bad and go away?
Was anything wrong with the stock steering stabilizer?
Unless it is broke there isn't much reason to replace the stocker.
A steering stabilizer shouldn't cause Death Wobble. Nor can it fix Death Wobble.
Adding a lift, or any work where you are loosening and tightening bolts in the front end can cause Death Wobble. Certain bolts in the front end need to be tightened fully and properly or Death Wobble can result. DW is usually a result of play or any looseness in the front end, especially in the track bar.
A steering stabilizer should not cause DW, but a steering stabilizer can cause steering issues if it is bad.
A steering stabilizer will not fix DW, either. If you have DW you need to find the play in the front end that is causing it.
If you search the forum you will find plenty of info on what to do to stop DW.
Here is a link to get you started.
https://www.wranglerforum.com/f202/d...les-78034.html
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Old 10-05-2019, 01:02 AM
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Had to dam near stop, just had tires balanced. Did it before and after. Changed stabilizer just because. Can a slight bent tie rod cause this? Slipped off jack once before alignment.
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Old 10-05-2019, 01:25 PM   #5
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I would doubt a bent tie rod would cause it. It is usually from some sort of play in the front end. Play in the tie rod ends, or play in anything else having to do with the front end. A common source of play is the track bar ends. Another source is ball joints. Anything that allows movement in the front end can cause it.
You may want to search for the planman video on death wobble. There is plenty of info already out there.
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Old 10-05-2019, 02:01 PM   #6
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Old 10-05-2019, 03:32 PM   #7
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Only reason I came in this thread was to ascertain if that was the case!
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Old 10-05-2019, 05:52 PM
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Thank you. Just seems strange, only 65,000 on street
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Old 10-05-2019, 06:15 PM   #9
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I disagree that a bent tie rod would not contribute. When it bent it changed the tow in. Also, your 2" lift perhaps changed the castor. Both can contribute to death wobble
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Old 10-05-2019, 07:28 PM   #10
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Did you get a report with the specifications after the alignment? From your post, it would appear that you had the alignment done AFTER you installed the lift.

Yes, the lift will change the caster. If it is out of spec, when you had the alignment done if after the lift the specs should show you how much out of spec they are.

Here is a link to the Planman post referenced.
https://www.wranglerforum.com/f202/di...les-78034.html


And here is a post reference the impact of caster on a Ford F250 with DW. No, it is not unique to Jeeps.

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Old 10-06-2019, 01:14 PM
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I’ll try to post the results. And a picture of the tie rod.
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Old 10-10-2019, 02:22 PM   #12
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I'd replace the tierod and ends. Between the impact of possibly bending the rod and who knows how much force the garage used during the front end alignment, those tierod ends may be shot.

I agree with the first guy, check the wheel balance first. Might as well upgrade the tierod while your replacing it. Then last, those ball joints, if there was a wobble once they were already stressed.
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Old 11-02-2019, 06:58 AM
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Found a good post and a lot of people are replacing the bolts on the track bar with 9/16 shoulder bolts because the stock in’s are a hair small and are all threaded.
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Old 11-02-2019, 07:20 AM
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How long should the shoulder part be. They say use M14 bolt or 91/6 18unf x 3.0 bolts. Will that determine the shoulder part?
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Old 11-11-2019, 02:15 PM
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Well I went ahead and ordered a kit to replace the LCA bolts front and rear withe track bar bolts to beef the front end up. I did notice the drag link to pitman arm has movement in the whole Up an down but doesn’t seem to have sided to side movements. I’d this bad? By the way this is the kit I ordered. Jeep Wrangler JK Track Bar and Lower Control Arm Bolt Upgrade Kit + Extra M14 Bolt https://www.amazon.com/dp/B018Q6FK0Y..._CpBYDbBCC0FB6.
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Old 11-11-2019, 02:33 PM   #16
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Did you figure out what was causing your wobble?
Unless one of the holes in the track bar mount are ovaled out or there is some other looseness in the front end, I am not sure about replacing the bolts actually fixing your wobble.
When you had it aligned, what did they say was your caster? And your Toe?
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Old 11-11-2019, 02:40 PM   #17
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I would say check your balljoints, if you had a deathwobble and the BJs are stock chances are they might be shot now. Does you car pull in any specific direction? I know sometimes a bad steering stabilizer will want to push or pull in a certain direction and that could be a culprit. Apart from that definitely check your TB see if the bolts are tight (u really wanna have these tight), you can even have someone shake the steering wheel of your car back and forth while its off to see if there is any unusual movement in your front suspension.
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Old 11-11-2019, 05:45 PM   #18
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I got my '08 2nd hand with a 2" lift. I found that certain bumps would trigger massive shimmies that at least once almost ran me off the road. The problem was the caster being too low after the lift. Adjustable LCAs, (later replaced with geo brackets), fixed it.


Steering shimmy from low caster can be almost as bad as DW, and can cause damage/wear to other components that can evolve into DW. When does your DW occur? Can you trigger it at certain known places? If so, what are the conditions in that place? Or does it occur on straight, or slightly curving, smooth road at speed? Do you have to come to an almost complete stop, or only slow down to, say, 30-40mph?


As said above, a steering damper won't cause DW, & cannot fix it. It can only, sometimes, act as a bandaid to cover up the cause until the real problem gets so bad it cannot be concealed any more.
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Old 11-11-2019, 07:38 PM
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Here’s the alignment sheet
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Old 11-12-2019, 05:47 AM   #20
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OK, caster is way too low. Hit an angled bump anywhere around 50mph & you will likely get vicious steering shimmy from that alone.


Feel around for anything loose, (get someone to wiggle the steering wheel left/right with the engine off & wrap your hand around the rod ends to see if you can feel movement, there shouldn't be any.)



Other than that, adjustable LCAs if you want the best ground clearance, or geo brackets if you want better on road ride, or ground clearance is not the most important thing.



I'd give even odds that if you fit one of those, your problem will go away, (at least until something wears and you get real DW). Mine hasn't come back in ~70,000km since fitting them.
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Old 11-12-2019, 07:23 AM   #21
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Also, your Toe is a little low. That can make the steering flighty.
As mentioned, either brackets or control arms to add more caster, and maybe dial in a little more Toe (make the tie rod shorter).
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Old 11-12-2019, 08:15 PM
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Ok, I’m going to change the bolts an have it realigned. When I first had it done he did mention that they would have to install eccentric bolts on the LCA to get it closer. But he mentioned it was close enough.
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Old 11-13-2019, 07:16 AM   #23
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Ok, I’m going to change the bolts an have it realigned. When I first had it done he did mention that they would have to install eccentric bolts on the LCA to get it closer. But he mentioned it was close enough.
To fix your low caster you should look into either lower front control arms that are adjustable / longer or geometry brackets. The geometry brackets will give you a better ride, but they do hang down a little bit so they can cause clearance issues if you wheel in the rocks. For lower front control arms, you can go with adjustable arms or fixed arms that are simply a little longer than stock.
I would avoid the eccentric bolts, commonly called cam bolts. They can shift over time and your caster will change if they do. The control arms or geometry brackets are a little more expensive, but they are a better solution. And, as mentioned, the brackets will actually improve the ride quality because they improve the angles of the control arms.

This stems from lifting. When you lift, it changes the orientation of the front axle, typically reducing caster. So you end up with less caster than you started with. Often with a small lift you will still be OK. But every Jeep is different, and some start out with less caster than others due to manufacturing tolerances. So some Jeeps end up with insufficient caster after even a small lift. But correcting that is as simple as geometry brackets or adjustable / longer control arms.
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Old 11-14-2019, 05:17 PM
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When you mean caster is to low is, that positive or negative? Also, what is toe to low? Thanks
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Old 11-15-2019, 05:33 AM   #25
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Your caster is ~3 degrees, it should be around 4.5 degrees. Many people aim for 5-6 degrees.


Here's an older thread with, perhaps, more than you want to know about it: https://www.wranglerforum.com/f202/j...ng-502001.html
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Old 11-15-2019, 07:42 AM   #26
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When you mean caster is to low is, that positive or negative? Also, what is toe to low? Thanks
Caster is the angle the steering axis is at. When you turn left and right the front wheels turn on an axis. That axis is not straight up and down but rather at a slight angle down and towards the front. This means that the center of the tires contact patch is actually behind the steering axis if you were to draw that axis all the way to the ground. That difference, that amount that the tires center of contact is behind the steering axis, is what gives the steering that self-centering. It is also what makes your steering stable. Not enough caster means the steering axis is too close to vertical and that means the tires center of contact is too close to the steering axis. That will result in steering that doesn't have enough self-centering and lacks stability. Too much caster can mean too much self-centering, the steering can be too heavy, and the steering can be slow (excessive turning of the steering wheel to achieve a given amount of actual turning left or right).
You typically want between 4.5 degrees and 6 degrees of caster, that seems to be the happy compromise. Different people, and different Jeeps, may prefer closer to 4.5 degrees or closer to 6 degrees (some even go higher with big tires and / or tall lifts).
Toe is how much in or out the two front tires are pointed. Typically, and contrary to what some might assume, the two front tires are pointed inwards towards each other a little bit. This helps stability. Too much pointing inwards towards each other will result in excessive tire wear. But a little won't cause issues with tire wear, and it will make for a good steering Jeep. In other situations, people might run the front tires either directly parallel with each other, or even pointing outwards, away from each other a little. This makes for quicker steering. It is common in sports cars, especially ones used in track events. But for Jeeps, you want the two front tires pointed inwards towards each other a little. Mine are set to where the front measurement of the front tires are 1/4" closer together than the rear measurement of the front tires. That measurement I pulled just below the frame, where I could get a tape measure.
You can measure Toe yourself. But having a shop do it is easy enough if it is already there. Toe is adjustable without extra parts, the Tie Rod has the ability to adjust, making it longer or shorter. A shorter Tie Rod will mean the front tires will be pointed more inwards towards each other. A longer Tie Rod points the front tires outwards away from each other.
Adding more caster takes additional parts. Shops will often want to install cam bolts. I would avoid that. Cam bolts are the cheap way to do it, but they are the worst way to do it. And if they adjust it using cam bolts and either any of your axle side control arm pivots come loose or you need to loosen them up the adjustment they made using the cam bolts can be lost. It is better to have either geometry brackets (they offer the best ride quality), adjustable front lower control arms (longer front lower control arms equals more caster), or fixed length front lower control arms that are longer than stock (provides the caster increase required without the hassle of adjusting). Which of the three options you go with is up to you. I think the geometry brackets are best for most people, but some people (including myself) get hung up on the slight ground clearance reduction they involve. I avoided them originally, but now I am installing them.
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Old 11-18-2019, 06:54 PM   #27
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Excellent explanation!


I went with adjustable arms first & that fixed my problem. Then later switched to brackets for the better ride. (I have 2 f***ed disks in my back...) Ground clearance isn't such an issue for me, & even when off road, (reshaping the transfer case crossmember and fuel tank skid), I never got hung up on the brackets.
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Old 11-18-2019, 10:06 PM   #28
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I also prefer the Geo brackets to adjustable control arms.


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Old 11-29-2019, 03:37 PM
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Ok I went with adjustable LCA’s. When I put my angle finder on pinion it reads zero. How much caster is this and should I lengthen the control arms or shorten for proper caster
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Old 12-07-2019, 02:30 AM
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Got it realigned caster 4.5 driver side 4.3 passenger side. If I want more caster do I lengthen the Control arms?

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