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Old 05-25-2015, 11:55 AM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 88Hatchy View Post
1. The graphs are identical. Available torque it higher at 2400 than it is at 3000. I'm not sure why you think that spinning the engine faster than necessary is going to help anything. Even running 4.88 gears with 40" tires would be acceptable since the engine would be at about 2400 rpm at 70 mph. 2. Here is a tire that measures 34" tall.
You're still not getting this. This isn't about the engine AT ALL. This is about compensating for changes in tire diameter, rotating mass, mass, friction, aerodynamics, etc. by increasing mechanical advantage at the differential.

Here's an illustration:



Click image for larger version

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ID:	2212849

The diameter of a 4.88 ring gear is greater than that of a 3.73 ring gear. Herein lies the mechanical advantage ... AT ANY RPM. At any rpm we have effectively moved the fulcrum in such a way as to increase leverage against the greater load brought about by other factors thereby improving acceleration, ability to hold rpm and, for that matter, engine efficiency. At some point, tire size would necessarily limit top speed, all other things being equal. 70mph on a 40" tire may be approaching terminal velocity, so to speak. I don't know how realistic that is. Can't imagine the 3.6 powering a 7000lb jeep with 6" of lift on 40's doing 70 up a mountain pass.

Is any of this reaching you yet?

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Old 05-25-2015, 12:02 PM   #62
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Let's use my TJ as an example of why neither of you know what you're talking about. Yes gearing is about leverage and how much torque is available to move the "lever". A stock jeep is geared so that the engine is capable of turning the tires with the torque it has. My TJ has a 2.5 L engine which has peak torque at 3100 rpm. In stock form, at 70 mph, the Jeep's engine would be at almost exactly 3000 rpm. When I built my TJ to have D44 front with an OX locker, RJ60 rear with a Detroit locker, full Johnny Joint arms, OME springs, TF SS SYE, high clearance skids, etc (read: more build than either of yours), I chose 5.13 gears because it puts the engine at nearly the exact same speed while cruising. I could have installed 5.38 gears for the exact same cost and work. I didn't because revving the engine higher doent help anything. The TJ that allegedly has 3.07 gears:
Yes, of course, your 2.5L TJ clearly illustrates that I don't know what I'm talking about. Have you studied physics? I have. PM me if you wan to debate this further. I don't need to prove anything to you.

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Old 05-25-2015, 12:17 PM   #63
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Nothing we say is going to convince him. And to the gears he chose. That engine will be out of steam in another 1k rpms anyways. They're a turd in stock form or in his case modified. On the dyno graph he's clinging to a loss of 1-5 foot pounds won't even be noticed. The engine will vary by that or more from engine to engine or outside conditions. I'm not even sure why he's trolling the JK section with such a limited understanding of these particular vehicles. It goes to show throwing a ton of money at something still doesn't make you an expert on a subject that is clearly above your head.
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Old 05-25-2015, 12:23 PM   #64
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The level of your build compared to others to prove your point is useless. My vehicle is built to serve the needs I have for it. I do not need to nor do I use to to compensate for my inadequacies real or perceived. Also in your post you stated you went with a certain gear set to being back the stock ratio and rpms at a given speed. Yet you chastise anyone for going with 4.56s that would place them back at stock rubicon ratios. How much sense does that make chief?
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Old 05-25-2015, 12:30 PM   #65
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You're still not getting this. This isn't about the engine AT ALL.
The why don't diesel engines have super low gear set and rev really high? They obviously can. It couldn't possibly have anything to do with the fact that they make torque at lower RPM.

This is about compensating for changes in tire diameter, rotating mass, mass, friction, aerodynamics, etc. by increasing mechanical advantage at the differential.

Here's an illustration:



Attachment 2212849

The diameter of a 4.88 ring gear is greater than that of a 3.73 ring gear. Herein lies the mechanical advantage ... AT ANY RPM. At any rpm we have effectively moved the fulcrum in such a way as to increase leverage against the greater load brought about by other factors thereby improving acceleration, ability to hold rpm and, for that matter, engine efficiency. At some point, tire size would necessarily limit top speed, all other things being equal. 70mph on a 40" tire may be approaching terminal velocity, so to speak. I don't know how realistic that is. Can't imagine the 3.6 powering a 7000lb jeep with 6" of lift on 40's doing 70 up a mountain pass.

Is any of this reaching you yet?
None of your rambling explains why anyone would chose to have their engine operating at a higher RPM that has less torque available. The practical reason for re-gearing is to make a Jeep more drivable on a day-to-day basis. A Jeep has trouble maintaining speed on the highway because it is out of the useable power band for the tire size and load. If the engine makes less torque at 3000 rpm than it does at 2400 rpm, then would you agree that the engine is less capable of pushing on a lever? After all, levers are about multiplying torque. If a lever makes 200 lbs of torque more effective, then the same lever makes 210 lbs even more effective.

Is any of THAT reaching you?
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Old 05-25-2015, 12:38 PM   #66
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The level of your build compared to others to prove your point is useless. My vehicle is built to serve the needs I have for it. I do not need to nor do I use to to compensate for my inadequacies real or perceived. Also in your post you stated you went with a certain gear set to being back the stock ratio and rpms at a given speed. Yet you chastise anyone for going with 4.56s that would place them back at stock rubicon ratios. How much sense does that make chief?
The original post:

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Originally Posted by crumb View Post
What axle gearing would you suggest on a 2014 JKU with 35's that will likely never see any real offroading?
My response:

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Originally Posted by 88Hatchy View Post
4.56 gears are more than enough for 35" tires on a 3.6L JK. Realistically, you don't need more than a 4.10 gear. Using a lower gear will put the engine at an speed that has less available torque.
When did I say that 4.56 gears were a bad choice?
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Old 05-25-2015, 12:56 PM   #67
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Old 05-25-2015, 01:09 PM   #68
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Debate is good. It clarifies and defines the argument when held respectfully.

I'm a novice and all 3 debaters make valid points. Perhaps I'm missing something in their explanations, or maybe we're debating two separate points that aren't necessarily mutually exclusive?

Looking to learn - and personally enjoy charts that do get do the basics of physics and torque/power levels.
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Old 05-25-2015, 01:18 PM   #69
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It's just some expressing their opinions. Nothing wrong with that!!!!!!!!!

3.6 engine with 35's in most cases, 4.56 ratio.
3.8 engine with 35's and auto, 5.13 ratio, manual, 4.88 ratio.

^^^This is a good rule of thumb, but it doesn't always apply!!!!!!


Do you have a stock 2 door, or the heavier 4 door (approx. 400 lbs.), heavy bumper with winch, plus a heavier spare tire. Normally by yourself, or with a passenger. What gear and or tool boxes do you carry with you. In other words, how much added additional weight???

Logistically, where do you live, mountains, elevation, windy area, or just in town, as a Mall Crawler.

All of the above should be considered, and would play a part in the equation........
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Old 05-25-2015, 01:21 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by 88Hatchy View Post
The original post: My response: When did I say that 4.56 gears were a bad choice?
Quote:
Originally Posted by 88Hatchy View Post
The original post: My response: When did I say that 4.56 gears were a bad choice?
reread your own quote. Also at or near 3k the 3.6 is not out of its power band.
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Old 05-25-2015, 01:22 PM   #71
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It's just some expressing their opinions. Nothing wrong with that!!!!!!!!! 3.6 engine with 35's in most cases, 4.56 ratio. 3.8 engine with 35's and auto, 5.13 ratio, manual, 4.88 ratio. ^^^This is a good rule of thumb, but it doesn't always apply!!!!!! Do you have a stock 2 door, or the heavier 4 door (approx. 400 lbs.), heavy bumper with winch, plus a heavier spare tire. Normally by yourself, or with a passenger. What gear and or tool boxes do you carry with you. In other words, how much added additional weight??? Logistically, where do you live, mountains, elevation, windy area, or just in town, as a Mall Crawler. All of the above should be considered, and would play a part in the equation........
agreed.
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Old 05-25-2015, 03:01 PM   #72
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reread your own quote. Also at or near 3k the 3.6 is not out of its power band.

Where did I say "don't get 4.56 gears"?
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Old 05-25-2015, 04:02 PM   #73
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None of your rambling explains why anyone would chose to have their engine operating at a higher RPM that has less torque available. The practical reason for re-gearing is to make a Jeep more drivable on a day-to-day basis. A Jeep has trouble maintaining speed on the highway because it is out of the useable power band for the tire size and load. If the engine makes less torque at 3000 rpm than it does at 2400 rpm, then would you agree that the engine is less capable of pushing on a lever? After all, levers are about multiplying torque. If a lever makes 200 lbs of torque more effective, then the same lever makes 210 lbs even more effective. Is any of THAT reaching you?
"The why don't diesel engines have super low gear set and rev really high? They obviously can. It couldn't possibly have anything to do with the fact that they make torque at lower RPM."

You inserted this. These are not my words. And no, Diesel engines can not withstand higher rpms. They are engineered around higher compression ratios. The components would not handle handle higher engine speeds as well as comparable gasoline engines (My ramblings? How did this end up being about diesel engines?).

1. Passing, or navigating an obstacle are two reasons one might push an engine beyond peak torque Shifting is not always an option.

2. A Jeep has trouble maintaining speed because it is not geared appropriately for the load. If it were simply a matter of engine speed you could just ignore the speedometer and go 2400 rpm, right? Then, by your logic, you'd never lose speed, right?

3. Levers, we're getting closer but ... the relationships between these variables are not linear. And torque curves are not as predictable as levers. Your comparison, 200 v 210lb (5%), is still less than 4.1:1 v 4.56:1 (9%). Let alone 3.21 to 4.56, etc.

Here's my point: it's not ultimately about engine speed. You can adjust vehicle speed accommodate engine speed, if that's what you're concerned about. It's about compensating for other modifications. Specifically; lift, larger tires and heavier equipment. You know, the stuff we come to this site for.

To the reader: If you take this guy (88whatever) solely at his word you deserve what you get. Better yet, have him do the job. But, please do come back and tell us how it all worked out.
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Old 05-25-2015, 04:07 PM   #74
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Correction: 4.10:1 to 4.56:1 is closer to 11%.
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Old 05-25-2015, 05:07 PM   #75
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"The why don't diesel engines have super low gear set and rev really high? They obviously can. It couldn't possibly have anything to do with the fact that they make torque at lower RPM."

You inserted this. These are not my words. And no, Diesel engines can not withstand higher rpms. They are engineered around higher compression ratios. The components would not handle handle higher engine speeds as well as comparable gasoline engines (My ramblings? How did this end up being about diesel engines?).

1. Passing, or navigating an obstacle are two reasons one might push an engine beyond peak torque Shifting is not always an option.

2. A Jeep has trouble maintaining speed because it is not geared appropriately for the load. If it were simply a matter of engine speed you could just ignore the speedometer and go 2400 rpm, right? Then, by your logic, you'd never lose speed, right?

3. Levers, we're getting closer but ... the relationships between these variables are not linear. And torque curves are not as predictable as levers. Your comparison, 200 v 210lb (5%), is still less than 4.1:1 v 4.56:1 (9%). Let alone 3.21 to 4.56, etc.

Here's my point: it's not ultimately about engine speed. You can adjust vehicle speed accommodate engine speed, if that's what you're concerned about. It's about compensating for other modifications. Specifically; lift, larger tires and heavier equipment. You know, the stuff we come to this site for.

To the reader: If you take this guy (88whatever) solely at his word you deserve what you get. Better yet, have him do the job. But, please do come back and tell us how it all worked out.
What the Hell are you even talking about?

Have you seen what engine speed Diesel engines cruise at? It's low because they make torque that low. It's an example of engines operating in their most efficient power band, not spinning them unnecessarily high.

1. When is downshifting not an option? When you have leg cramp? When the transmission is broken?

2. Im comparing the output of the engine at specific speeds as it relates to cruising speed. It has nothing to do with the difference between 200 lb-ft and 210 lb-ft and the difference between 4.10 ears and 4.56 gears. I'm not sure where you got that from.

3. The Jeep 3.6L engine makes about 10 more lb-ft at 2400 rpm than it does at 3000 rpm, hence the comparison I gave. No matter what gear is in the axles, there will always be more torque available at 2400 rpm than there is at 3000 rpm. Because there is more available torque at 2400 rpm than there is at 3000 rpm, the Jeep will perform better while cruising. How are you having difficult time understanding this?

Of course it not about engine speed, I never said it was. Its about how much power the engine makes at certain speeds. The 3.6L engine makes more torque at 2400 rpm than it does at 3000 rpm. Period. Revving an engine higher than necessary only decreases it's lifespan.

And yes, rambling on about the "terminal velocity" of a 40" tire and other nonsense.
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Old 05-25-2015, 07:03 PM   #76
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You are correct the engine is most efficient at 2400. The goal with the gear swap for this particular situation isn't to run the engine higher that's simply a consequence. It's to give the engine the leverage it needs to over come the additional stresses brought on by the mods. At 75 I am running the golden 2400. However when a small hill or head wind hits the vehicle begins to bog. Why? Because it doesn't have enough leverage to push harder. The only time regearing would help raise rpms that are to low would be the guys with 321s and large tires ect. As good as the pentastar is at the end of the day it only has so much torque to give. It requires assistance from lower gears to move the vehicle effectively at highway speeds with hills ect. If I were running say a hemi or a descent size turbo diesel then yes I would say go with less gear and keep the rpms low because those engines have more than enough torque to handle the situation.
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Old 05-25-2015, 09:10 PM   #77
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You are correct the engine is most efficient at 2400. The goal with the gear swap for this particular situation isn't to run the engine higher that's simply a consequence. It's to give the engine the leverage it needs to over come the additional stresses brought on by the mods. At 75 I am running the golden 2400. However when a small hill or head wind hits the vehicle begins to bog. Why? Because it doesn't have enough leverage to push harder. The only time regearing would help raise rpms that are to low would be the guys with 321s and large tires ect. As good as the pentastar is at the end of the day it only has so much torque to give. It requires assistance from lower gears to move the vehicle effectively at highway speeds with hills ect. If I were running say a hemi or a descent size turbo diesel then yes I would say go with less gear and keep the rpms low because those engines have more than enough torque to handle the situation.
Depends on wether or not you include fuel economy in that efficiency definition. 2400rpm is not neccessarily the most fuel efficient rpm. And gearing to cruise in top gear at 2400rpm will use more fuel. You can always gear down.
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Old 05-25-2015, 09:13 PM   #78
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Depends on wether or not you include fuel economy in that efficiency definition. 2400rpm is not neccessarily the most fuel efficient rpm.
I can agree with that. I suppose was mostly stating that the engine is making enough torque for the task at hand. However if the engine is lugging then under 2k wouldn't be the best for fuel economy either.
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Old 05-25-2015, 11:27 PM   #79
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Of course it not about engine speed, I never said it was.

Have you seen what engine speed Diesel engines cruise at?

Of course it not about engine speed, I never said it was.

Im comparing the output of the engine at specific speeds ...

Of course it not about engine speed, I never said it was.

Its about how much power the engine makes at certain speeds ...

Of course it not about engine speed, I never said it was.

The 3.6L engine makes more torque at 2400 rpm than it does at 3000 rpm ...

Of course it not about engine speed, I never said it was.

Revving an engine higher than necessary ...

Of course it not about engine speed, I never said it was
I'm sorry, come again? Something about it not being about engine speed?
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Old 05-25-2015, 11:46 PM   #80
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Ok what I'm getting from 88Hatchy is that the power bands referenced are indicators of power bands with relatively stock items and compares gear ratios only.

The others are giving practical daily experience that incorporates lift, weight, tire size etc that may change the need for gearing ratios.

Everybody wins.
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Old 05-25-2015, 11:54 PM   #81
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"Have you seen what engine speed Diesel engines cruise at?"

Yes, I have. Can't wait for a diesel powered wrangler. The 3.6 pretty much sucks as a Jeep engine. But, wait a minute, this thread is about regearing, as in ring and pinion, right?

"When is downshifting not an option? When you have leg cramp? When the transmission is broken?"

While those instances would present logical explanations to your question I was thinking more along the lines of others where such a change might disrupt a course of action with a relatively low margin of error. Threading the proverbial needle, so to speak. But, there again, you probably have no idea what I mean. It's okay, I'm sure you're not alone. I'm in stuff like that frequently, probably because I like to push the envelope.

"No matter what gear is in the axles, there will always be more torque available at 2400 rpm than there is at 3000 rpm."

But there's still plenty of torque at 3000 rpm, right? Even if it's not about engine speed.
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Old 05-26-2015, 10:14 AM   #82
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I'm sorry, come again? Something about it not being about engine speed?
You can't possibly be as dense as the part you're playing. Gear choice about what the Jeep 3.6L engines do at certain speeds. If my claim was about engine speed it would say, "You want to cruise at 5000 rpm, no matter what."

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"Have you seen what engine speed Diesel engines cruise at?"

Yes, I have. Can't wait for a diesel powered wrangler. The 3.6 pretty much sucks as a Jeep engine. But, wait a minute, this thread is about regearing, as in ring and pinion, right?

"When is downshifting not an option? When you have leg cramp? When the transmission is broken?"

While those instances would present logical explanations to your question I was thinking more along the lines of others where such a change might disrupt a course of action with a relatively low margin of error. Threading the proverbial needle, so to speak. But, there again, you probably have no idea what I mean. It's okay, I'm sure you're not alone. I'm in stuff like that frequently, probably because I like to push the envelope.

"No matter what gear is in the axles, there will always be more torque available at 2400 rpm than there is at 3000 rpm."

But there's still plenty of torque at 3000 rpm, right? Even if it's not about engine speed.

Yes, there is still enough torque at 3000 RPM, but why rev the engine 25% faster than necessary, causing (potentially) 25% more wear to the rings?

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Ok what I'm getting from 88Hatchy is that the power bands referenced are indicators of power bands with relatively stock items and compares gear ratios only.

The others are giving practical daily experience that incorporates lift, weight, tire size etc that may change the need for gearing ratios.

Everybody wins.
It's not about "winning", it about people giving shitty advice based on experience that ends with the limited number of vehicles they have personally owned. To say that someone "needs" 4.56 or 4.88 gears for 35" tires on a 3.6L JK is asinine. Is the added expense of using OEM 4.10 gears worth it? Absolutely not, but if you have 4.10 gears there is no need to re-gear for 35" tires.
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Old 05-26-2015, 10:24 AM   #83
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Yes, there is still enough torque at 3000 RPM, but why rev the engine 25% faster than necessary, causing (potentially) 25% more wear to the rings?
It's pretty obvious you don't actually drive a Jeep in the real world.

A bit of free advice. You've hit rock bottom. You should stop digging.
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Old 05-26-2015, 11:43 AM   #84
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It's pretty obvious you don't actually drive a Jeep in the real world.

A bit of free advice. You've hit rock bottom. You should stop digging.
Way to add something useful.
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Old 05-26-2015, 01:14 PM   #86
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It's pretty obvious you don't actually drive a Jeep in the real world. A bit of free advice. You've hit rock bottom. You should stop digging.
I know I've made an ass of myself here too but, thank god somebody with some clout (you) has the balls to call this d-bag out. For [email protected]€k sake!
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Old 05-26-2015, 01:46 PM   #87
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I know I've made an ass of myself here too but, thank god somebody with some clout (you) has the balls to call this d-bag out. For [email protected]€k sake!
Don't kid yourself. I'm pretty good of making an ass of myself too.

I avoid it by refusing to get drawn too far into arguments with internet "experts" who obviously have little real world experience, much less not having a full understanding of the topic (like the difference RPMs make when looking at torque). They're not going to back down no matter what you say or what evidence you provide. It's usually not productive to nit pick their failed points one at a time because you'll just get a whole line of "nuh-uh" and other "effective" arguments that waste time. It's better to just write them off and do what you can to present useful information regardless of what they say.

Bottom line with 35's and the Pentastar:

Anything up to and including 3.73's are "insufficient" for anything but a daily driver that never shifts into overdrive unless you're going downhill with a tail wind. You'll be able to get down the road and even drive on a trail or two but you really don't have enough gear to do harder trails where you need to be "low and slow".

4.10's are "adequate" and easier to live with when: a) you drive at lower elevations; b) have an automatic; c) have a Rubicon transfer case for crawling; d) Just drive your Jeep on the street; or e) Drive mostly in mud where you want higher wheel speed.

4.56's are better all around for daily driving, trail riding, and mild rock crawling at moderate elevations. When you have a manual transmission, they are what you need to be able to go up a mild hill in overdrive without down shifting all the time. Though when you live up at high altitude where you lose engine power they fall to the "adequate" category like 4.10's.

4.88's are good for high altitude and Jeeps that do a lot of hard trails/rock crawling. They push higher RPMs on the freeway but if you have a heavy Jeep at altitude, the 3.6 doesn't make enough power to keep you going so you need the torque multiplication of the shorter ratio. With regards to the higher RPMs and engine wear, if you're at elevation you either run shorter axle gears or you downshift. That's the only way to get enough power to tackle the hills and mountains. You're running high RPMs no matter what you do. May as well put in axle gears that give you a better effective operating range.

5.13's are really too much for a daily driver unless you live somewhere over 10,000 feet. Even then, they are a bit aggressive. They are good for rock crawling, especially with a manual transmission. If you're planning on 37's you can live with 5.13's until you get the new tires.

5.38's are even more "too much" and should only be considered for trail rigs. You can drive to the trails but you'll be pushing high RPMs on the way there and back. Again, if you're planning on doing bigger tires soon, they're not so bad that you can't drive it. You'll just want the tires sooner rather than later.
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Old 05-26-2015, 02:57 PM   #88
BE AWARE OF THE DRAGON..

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^^^This just maybe a friendly warning from our MOD, that he is watching....
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Old 05-26-2015, 03:09 PM   #89
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This is quite hilarious, though not as hilarious as 4.10s screaming up Vail Pass in 2nd gear because it can barely hold 60 mph in 3rd.
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Old 05-26-2015, 03:19 PM   #90
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This is quite hilarious, though not as hilarious as 4.10s screaming up Vail Pass in 2nd gear because it can barely hold 60 mph in 3rd.
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^^^This just maybe a friendly warning from our MOD, that he is watching....

Lol I saw that too. That's exactly what it is

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