RRIP vs Magnuson vs Sprintex vs Edelbrook vs Prodigy Turbo - Jeep Wrangler Forum
Jeep Wrangler Forum

Go Back   Jeep Wrangler Forum > JK Jeep Wrangler Forum > JK Tech Forum

Join Wrangler Forum Today


Reply
 
Thread Tools

Please support our sponsors and let them know you heard about them on WranglerForum.com
Old 03-27-2016, 09:22 AM
Thread Starter
  #1
Jeeper
 
IceManUAE's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: 21
RRIP vs Magnuson vs Sprintex vs Edelbrook vs Prodigy Turbo

Hey guys after reading many threads I decided to open this thread to get simple straight forward answers from members who have used and installed the following SC or the prodigy Turbo.

I'm in the market for buying any of the above on my 2013 JK Sahara



The points of interest are as follows:

1st A complete bolt on

2nd Most reliable on road then off road

3rd Most HP

4th Easier to go back to stock

Price is not an issue.

ENGINE SWAP IS NOT AN OPTION.


I just want a daily use upgrade to my motor without the headache.


Please let me know your thoughts and thank you in advance.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

IceManUAE is offline   Quote
Old 03-27-2016, 10:30 AM   #2
Jeeper
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: Northern California
Posts: 456
Was the other current thread on this topic inadequate (still listed on the first page of the tech forum)?

PetrichorJeep is offline   Quote
Old 03-27-2016, 10:34 AM
Thread Starter
  #3
Jeeper
 
IceManUAE's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: 21
The other thread did not compare all SC mentioned and did not include the turbo kit.

This thread is for a SIMPLE comparison with 4 related questions.

By the way my Jeep is a 6 speed manual transmission.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
IceManUAE is offline   Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 03-27-2016, 01:48 PM
Thread Starter
  #4
Jeeper
 
IceManUAE's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: 21
I read the thread yes it was helpful , thanks


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
IceManUAE is offline   Quote
Old 03-27-2016, 05:47 PM   #5
Jeeper
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 837
Ripp is the faster install and probably more turn key. Makes good hp and theres a shit ton of them out there.

Prodigy would make the most hp but definitely a more intensive install then you have exhaust and underhood heat to worry about.
__________________
2015 wrangler sport "Frank the Tank"
Ordered 3/31
D1 status 4/13
Arrival 5/13
Hardtop, 6 speed, alpine 9 speaker. The basics.
Mr.P_0_0_P is offline   Quote
Old 03-27-2016, 06:16 PM
Thread Starter
  #6
Jeeper
 
IceManUAE's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.P_0_0_P View Post
Ripp is the faster install and probably more turn key. Makes good hp and theres a shit ton of them out there.

Prodigy would make the most hp but definitely a more intensive install then you have exhaust and underhood heat to worry about.


Thank you, I did some research and can verify what you said correct.


I am in between a Sprintex vs Magnuson.

Got a good price on the Magnuson but I have a friend who runs it and the only problem he is facing is that at low RPMs which is what's mostly needed in desert dunes there is no power.

He says that he should change the ratio to 4:10 or 4:56.

The sprintex however; hits at lower RPMs which is why I'm leaning towards it more.

Still continuing the research.
IceManUAE is offline   Quote
Old 03-27-2016, 08:26 PM   #7
Jeeper
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: SE Michigan
Posts: 1,401
Prodigy Turbo

First, your 4 specific areas of interest:

1) It's a complete "bolt-on" kit, but requires some trimming of a few plastic parts and shortening the lower radiator hose a bit to re-orient it. The turbo install is definitely the most involved because of the exhaust side of the system. It's still within the realm of a DIY install in the garage/driveway with basic tools, a Dremel, etc. I installed mine in my driveway, and I'm not an experienced mechanic. If you aren't an experienced mechanic/installer and choose to install it yourself, just be prepared for it to take longer than you expect as you double-check things and test-fit/align/route things a couple times to make sure you get it all perfect the first time.

2) Reliability: There's technically more opportunities for something to go wrong with a turbo system than a supercharger, but I'm not aware of anything particularly unreliable about it. If you drive on pointy rocks that could end up jabbing up in front of the oil pan, then there could be a concern about the turbo's oil return line getting damaged. That would be a bad day. Other than that, I don't think any of the forced induction kits are inherently/substantially more/less reliable than others in general. The turbo kit uses high quality components (Garrett or Precision turbo, TiAL wastegate and BOV, very nice Goodyear hoses, etc).

3) Turbo definitely wins in the peak hp/torque gains department. Even the Stage 1 kit makes more torque/power than any of the superchargers. Stage 2 makes even more, and there's easy options to get even more out of it. The huge gains are in the mid-to-high RPM range, with bigger gains than all the superchargers from about 3300 rpm and up.

4) The turbo would be the least fun to return to stock. But why would you want to return to stock?
__________________
2013 Wrangler Sport (2DR) | Stick Shift | 4.10 Gears | TrueTrac LSD Front & Rear
33x12.5x15 Duratracs on 15x8 Black Rock D-Window Wheels
Prodigy Performance Stage 2 Turbo
AEV 2" Spacer Lift
Full Disclosure: Affiliated with Prodigy Performance as of 3/10/16 (explanation)
This is my personal account. My statements/opinions are my own; not Prodigy's
UselessPickles is offline   Quote
Old 03-27-2016, 08:58 PM   #8
Jeeper
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: SE Michigan
Posts: 1,401
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.P_0_0_P View Post
Prodigy would make the most hp but definitely a more intensive install then you have exhaust and underhood heat to worry about.
I have not seen any evidence of need for concern about under-hood heat from the turbo system. A couple things to keep in mind:

1) The stock exhaust has a catalytic converter mounted directly to each side of the engine. That's 2 heat sources right next to the engine. Those are removed when installing the turbo kit, and a high-flow catalytic converter is added where the turbo exhaust meets up with the stock "cat-back" portion of the exhaust system, under the driver seat area.

2) The turbo only produces substantial extra heat when the engine is under load, spooling the turbo, and producing boost. When driving slow off-road, idling, etc., the turbo is not much more than just another piece of the exhaust system.

3) Put a turbo blanket on the hot-side of the turbo. It's not included in the kit, but highly recommended.

4) You can get the exhaust pipes ceramic coated if you're really concerned about under-hood heat. Exhaust wraps are probably not advisable if you'll be driving off road, through water, etc.


Engine coolant temps have been normal for me with all kinds of street driving, slow off-road trail driving, and even driving hard on the sand dunes in the summer.

Only problem I ever had was excessive intake air temps with the Stage 1 kit (no intercooler) on a sunny summer day (mid 80's F temps) out on the sand dunes after repeated attempts at climbing a sand dune (mid/high RPM, making plenty of boost, at speed, not crawling). After upgrading to Stage 2 (intercooler, BOV, more boost), I have not had this problem. My coolant temp gauge will budge past the mid-point a bit after some hard runs up the sand dunes, but will return to the middle after a few minutes of gentle driving or sitting still idling.

There are also several turbo kits sold in the middle east where they run hard on the sand dunes in 120*F heat. For hot climates, Prodigy offers a thermostat that opens at lower temps, and provides a special tune that triggers the cooling fans at lower temps. They recommend an aftermarket trans cooler with a fan if you run an automatic transmission hard in hot climates (racing, sand dunes).

They also have the largest intercooler, which keeps intake temps down, which in turn keeps combustion and exhaust temps down, which keeps under-hood temps down, which keeps intake air temps down...

The "positive displacement" type superchargers (Magnuson, Edelbrock, Sprintex) will likely have the highest intake air temps because of the compressor heat soaking directly on top of the engine, and the design requires a less efficient air-water-air cooling system, compared to the air-air cooling system of the RIPP and Prodigy.

For slow off-road driving, or slow stop-n-go traffic, you can improve the efficiency of the intercooler by painting it black with special radiator paint. It makes the intercooler shed much more heat when there's no airflow. I painted mine with Eastwood Radiator Black (satin finish):



Here's a demonstration of the effectiveness of a black intercooler. They even did it in the worst way possible (cheap black paint not specifically designed for this, intentionally tried to fully coat the fins through the entire intercooler). Using the special radiator paint and NOT trying to clog the fins with paint should produce even better results:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f1QL9veQaNg
__________________
2013 Wrangler Sport (2DR) | Stick Shift | 4.10 Gears | TrueTrac LSD Front & Rear
33x12.5x15 Duratracs on 15x8 Black Rock D-Window Wheels
Prodigy Performance Stage 2 Turbo
AEV 2" Spacer Lift
Full Disclosure: Affiliated with Prodigy Performance as of 3/10/16 (explanation)
This is my personal account. My statements/opinions are my own; not Prodigy's
UselessPickles is offline   Quote
Old 03-27-2016, 09:13 PM   #9
Jeeper
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: SE Michigan
Posts: 1,401
Quote:
Originally Posted by IceManUAE View Post
Got a good price on the Magnuson but I have a friend who runs it and the only problem he is facing is that at low RPMs which is what's mostly needed in desert dunes there is no power.

He says that he should change the ratio to 4:10 or 4:56.
I would expect the Magnuson to have pretty big low RPM gains comparatively. Do you have any evidence that the Sprintex has substantially more low RPM gain than the Magnuson? They are both positive-displacement type superchargers that should produce substantial boost across the entire RPM range.

What is "low RPMs" in this case? What size tires and what gear ratio does he have? Is he in 4LO, 1st gear, when having this trouble?

None of the forced induction mods can really make up for improper gearing, or lugging the engine at low RPMs instead of downshifting or using 4LO. The Pentastar simply doesn't make much torque below 2000 rpm. Adding boost will help, but adding some more to "not much to begin with" doesn't give you a whole lot. I suspect your friend is either improperly geared, being stubborn about downshifting/4LO instead hoping for big low RPM torque to pull him through, or a combination of both. Adding boost will not make the Pentastar act like a big V8 at very low RPM.

Properly geared, and making proper use of 4LO and transmission gears, even the stock engine should have little trouble with slow off-road driving. Try keeping the engine speed around 2000+ RPM as much as possible, and don't be afraid to go up to the 5000+ RPM range as needed. The only time this approach won't work is if you are doing extremely slow technical crawling where you're already in 4LO, 1st gear, properly geared axles, but you're going so slow that RPMs are too low (down near 1000 rpm). If you're doing extreme low speed stuff, then your Jeep is probably already built up too much to be a practical street vehicle, so you can deal with re-gearing it even more for extreme off-road performance while killing its freeway driving practicality.
__________________
2013 Wrangler Sport (2DR) | Stick Shift | 4.10 Gears | TrueTrac LSD Front & Rear
33x12.5x15 Duratracs on 15x8 Black Rock D-Window Wheels
Prodigy Performance Stage 2 Turbo
AEV 2" Spacer Lift
Full Disclosure: Affiliated with Prodigy Performance as of 3/10/16 (explanation)
This is my personal account. My statements/opinions are my own; not Prodigy's
UselessPickles is offline   Quote
Old 03-28-2016, 02:26 PM   #10
Jeeper
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 837
The problem with the roots type blowers:

To make decent boost with such tiny blowers they have to spin a high rpm. This produces alot of heat. You are not getting much more boost if any at low rpm because the blower has to produce enpugh boost at the engines redline without becoming a restriction. Remember it's also blowing through a very restrictive air water cooler that gets heat soaked after one hard pull. Unless you have either a huge blower spinning a low rpm but moving large amounts of air or a huge intercooler they will heat soak like crazy. Ever wonder why cobra guys ditch the roots or TVs blowers and swap for turbos or centrifugal blowers? Heat soak and lack of consistency.

Both the prodigy and ripp put huge intercoolers directly in the ambient air path. An air to air intercooler system will heat up faster but cool down immediately. A water air system takes a looong time to cool down. This is far more important than low rpm boost. These engines are absolute dogs below 2200-2500 rpm anyways. So look at dyno charts from there up. Heat soak is a huge deal and honestly the centrifugal blowers run significantly cooler under boost.

I had a Ford lightning 5.4 with a Eaton m90 stock. I could get one pull before the computer would pull huge amounts of timing. Swapping for a larger blower helped but even with a huge heat exchanger there was no way around it.

Those little TVs style blowers are bolted to a 210 degree engine and are basically a huge aluminum heatsink pulling heat into it.

The ripp is bolted off the motor slightly and has that front mounted heat exchanger everything is in the air path.

I like useless pickles prodigy setup but he has had to do alot of work to it to get good power. That just reaffirms that it's not a bolt on swap. Hate to say it but the ripp is. Especially for a manual trans as they have the tune down really well. If I was made of money and had to drive in drive out in a weekend. Ripp all day. If I had another vehicle to drive on Monday....ID get that stage two prodigy and run open down pipe and go drag race diesel pickups by weds night :P
__________________
2015 wrangler sport "Frank the Tank"
Ordered 3/31
D1 status 4/13
Arrival 5/13
Hardtop, 6 speed, alpine 9 speaker. The basics.
Mr.P_0_0_P is offline   Quote
Old 03-28-2016, 03:15 PM   #11
Jeeper
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: SE Michigan
Posts: 1,401
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.P_0_0_P View Post
I like useless pickles prodigy setup but he has had to do alot of work to it to get good power.
The amount of work I've put into my setup is not a valid representation of what a new customer should expect. I was an early adopter working with early revisions of the kit itself, the install guide, and the tune. I also started with Stage 1 and incrementally upgraded (to stage 2, then Precision turbo upgrade, then added a boost controller, added the oil catch can system when it became available, etc). I had very little experience working on cars before installing my turbo. I created a lot of the work for myself by being inexperienced. I'm also an obsessive tinkerer - I like to experiment with ways to make things better.

Other early adopters and me have provided a lot of feedback to Prodigy. The kit itself has been improved, as well as the tune, and resources available to help with installation. There's now a series of videos on their youtube channel that walk through the entire install process with several tips and optional approaches explained along the way: https://www.youtube.com/user/855TurboJeep/videos

Some of the explanations/tips in those videos would have saved me a lot of time during my install.

It most definitely is a complete bolt-on (with some trimming necessary) kit that can be installed over a weekend that will give you huge power without any customizations.
__________________
2013 Wrangler Sport (2DR) | Stick Shift | 4.10 Gears | TrueTrac LSD Front & Rear
33x12.5x15 Duratracs on 15x8 Black Rock D-Window Wheels
Prodigy Performance Stage 2 Turbo
AEV 2" Spacer Lift
Full Disclosure: Affiliated with Prodigy Performance as of 3/10/16 (explanation)
This is my personal account. My statements/opinions are my own; not Prodigy's
UselessPickles is offline   Quote
Old 03-31-2016, 08:34 PM   #12
Jeeper
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: Northern California
Posts: 456
Quote:
Originally Posted by IceManUAE View Post
Hey guys after reading many threads I decided to open this thread to get simple straight forward answers from members who have used and installed the following SC or the prodigy Turbo.

I'm in the market for buying any of the above on my 2013 JK Sahara


The points of interest are as follows:

1st A complete bolt on

2nd Most reliable on road then off road

3rd Most HP

4th Easier to go back to stock

Price is not an issue.

ENGINE SWAP IS NOT AN OPTION.


I just want a daily use upgrade to my motor without the headache.


Please let me know your thoughts and thank you in advance.

Hey man, there is always a lot to read and consider with these options. Thanks for reading up.

I will be up front and identify myself as more of a roots-style supercharger fan and have been for a long time. I have installed these on other vehicles that I have owned as well and with great success. I am also a former factory trained Mazda and Subaru master tech and worked on all of their turbo cars from the time they first came out in the mid 1980s through the time that I turned in my wrenches in the early 1990s. That twin-scroll they came out with on the first FI RX-7 was a very interesting design. FWIW, I have replaced MANY FAILED factory turbos with my own two hands (not something that I read on the internet) and have been inside of these very same engines over their service lives and seen first-hand the effects and the differences between the same car with and without a turbocharger.


Answers to your questions from my perspective....

First a comment: I have been doing this a long time and consider myself lucky to have such a wide variety of great choices out there in terms of the available FI kits.

Okay, another comment: You, Pickles, Myself and anyone else with a manual transmission are ideal candidates for FI (and messing with the tune). I think the people with automatic transmissions have had less luck and less peak HP.

As others and myself have already acknowledged, a stock Pentastar runs pretty dared well off-road when you are geared down and use your transfer case. FWIW, I regeared to 5.13s with 37s when I was still NA.

1) Is it "bolt on"? Yes. I think that they pretty much all are to one degree or another. What I did and what I recommend that you and others do - at least if you plan to self-install - is to download and read through all of the installation guides to assess the job. You might have to email or call and ask nice to get the install guide before purchase. They are not all the same in terms of complexity. From what others are reporting and after having looked through the guides myself, the RIPP does seem to be on the easiest end of the spectrum with the Prodigy+options at the most difficult end of the range. The TS and TVS blowers are probably in the middle. Looking at the user guide, the TS blower seemed to be oriented differently than the TVS and made for a slightly more complicated plumbing route, possibly making it ever so slightly more complicated to install as a whole.

Also, with respect to "bolt on".... I am not a fan of trimming and cutting to make things fit. The Edelbrock that I have did not require anything like that. Install was very clean an seamless. It looks factory.

I am also not a fan of all of that Exhaust rework that is required with the turbo. The exhaust flex joints make it a degree less reliable and remind me of my minivan. There is a lot of new exhaust plumbing in the engine compartment and it is not insulated and radiating heat in there that you were not getting before. Even with a turbo blanket, I am going to *speculate* that once they become saturated with heat, they become less effective. That and the down pipe is going to be throwing a ton of heat out and that is located in what has been established as one of the HOTTEST parts of the engine bay as it is – right behind the radiator.


2) Most reliable on and off road? I vote superchargers - any of the three styles. If RIPP requires an oil line then I would personally consider that to be slightly less reliable because it could break or leak badly. Oil feed lines can also be susceptible to coking and becoming restricted and/or plugged!

You can always carry a spare belt. They are not very difficult to install if you snap a belt on the trail. If you poke a branch through the intercooler, an air to air will have a giant new intake leak. On an air to water will obviously loose its fluid and become ineffective. You could potentially still limp home with a disabled intercooler in that case.

What kills turbos is heat. Oil lines can get coked up and plugged and then your bearing is going to be toast pretty quickly. I have repaired lots of issues on factory cars here. Factory got it wrong in some cases and the lines got hot, causing turbo failures. Remediation was to replace the lines and install insulation on them. Turbos that only had oil lubrication and that were not tied to the water jacket of the engine, all died early deaths. The fix here was a retrofit of a better turbo with a water jacket tied to the engines cooling system. They still failed. It slowly bakes he engine over time as well to the point of oil seals and rubber intake hoses becoming hard as a rock and leaking air or oil. I also used to be the transmission guy so when I pulled the down pipes out to get the transmissions out, I would always check for that turbo upsell. You can touch the exhaust turbine and wiggle it to see if the bearing is loose. Sometimes you could see where oil or coolant was leaking through it. Oil changes and oil quality are critical.


3) Turbo wins the HP debate. Hopefully nobody will tell you otherwise. What is cool about a turbocharger is that you have more control over when and how much boost is created as compared to a more linear a supercharger (and how relatively linear that is between the SC styles is even debatable). In other words, you can move its peak boost up or down the RPM range by playing with turbines, impellers and exhaust velocity. That and control over the boost valve. If I as a supercharger lover envy the turbo guy, it is for the control over boost. In other words, I like spinning knobs and would love to have more control over that myself. I don’t think the Prodigy turbo is pushing more PSI than some of the other solutions. What it is doing, however, is bringing it on sooner an concentrating in a particular range. This is generally a good thing. A boost controller really adds to this and should be part of your planned turbo solution by default. In fact, reading about boost controllers has me fascinated about trying to apply it to a SC. More so to fade the boost in based on RPM versus leaving it on the vacuum actuator. Turbo has the highest HP but also has the highest hardware acquisition cost, highest installation cost (whether it be in terms of dollars or the number of screams from your wife telling you to finish up that project – meaning that it will take you longer). It is also the least reliable option. A lot of the Prodigy videos that I see are out on the drag strip with super lightweight 2 door rigs that do not appear as read lofor the trails as other rigs. When I was 25, this would have been no question a much more of a binary decision – most HP is good. Less than the most HP is bad. Decision made. Now that I am 50, I see the solution more in shades of gray, with much more nuance detail.

Still - water/methanol injection on top of the blower install will add a good gain and reduce HP advantage that the turbo has. It also works across a board RPM band and allows you to advance ignition timing across the board.

Also - and this is a personal preference thing - I do not like the sounds that the blow off valves make. From what I understand, you can get quieter valves and there may also be techniques to quite them further.

4) Easier to go back to stock? Have the other commenters actually done that? Me? Yes. Let me suggest (no direct experience) that the turbo may leave its mark behind (tapping for oil supply an return and then plugging it?) and will be a more invasive uninstall – just like the install was. It is just the same steps in reverse order. When I did this, I felt that the car was more sellable to a wider market with no blower. Complete blower had no problem selling for a fair used price. It would probably be fair to say that the market for a used blower kit is probably greater than the market for the supercharged vehicle. Pickles smartly poses the question: “Why go back to stock?” Fair question. Still…. My take is sh*t happens. People change their minds and may need a different “out” than what was originally planned. Smoothest exist from FI will be with the kit that had the least invasive installation to begin with – maybe RIPP? Clean used parts will sell quickly and for a reasonable fee whether it be to another forum member or ebay. That ad read below regarding transfer of ownership and pending status.

Things that you did not ask about….

Emissions legal? Not only should you know of a particular kit is emissions legal (and I think most of the big players are complete or are working on it), you should ask if the exact configuration of the kit that you want is actually smog legal. As an example, there was a recently released Quadratec video highlighting the Edlebrock. The Edlebrock is available one way as a n 8psi kit that is smog legal. Other vendors apparently market it differently in that only the 6ps kits have CARB Executive Order numbers (or pending) and their “high altitude” 8psi kits do not and are not CARB approved (“smog legal” in California or any state that has adopted its smog laws).

If you have a kit where the CARB EO number is still “pending” and do a transfer of sale you will need to smog the vehicle sooner rather than later. What I was told by one vendor on the phone is that they are assuming nobody will need to smog their cars for a number of years based on age and DMV requirements. Transfer of sale does not count here and you could be in a situation where you *have* to remove it.


That said, all of the options sound great and when I looked into things I found the vendors supportive and knowledgeable. Hard to actually make a bad choice here. Someone correct me if I am wrong but from what I have seen, RIPP is probably the most actively involved on the Jeep forums and events. I have seen them directly respond to customer issues on the forums, stand behind their stuff and get issues worked out.

Interesting bit on black intercoolers. Short story is that it is only measurably reducing temps when the vehicle is not moving. Might be interesting on the trail when crawling along in traffic.

Anyway, I would not let the intercooler influence your decision. First of all, it will be the blower choice that will dictate the intercooler style (air to air versus air to water). I prefer black, simply for the aesthetics and stealthiness. The heat radiating properties are an interesting perk. If the air to air intercoolers were really that much more effective then I think the TS and TVS supercharger companies would figure out a way to incorporate them into their designs.

If your intercooler of choice was unfinished, you could give these guys a call. They claim to have coatings that have superior heat dissipation qualities.
http://swaintech.com/race-coatings/

Another technique would be to spray the air to air intercooler with a mist of water to make it transfer heat more effectively. Some cars come from the factory with this but still it is only marginally effective and I think only when moving – opposite of the black paint.

My two favorites are TVS and the TS. What is interesting about the Twin Screw is that Sprintex is employing plastic manifolds to help reduce the effects of heat soak. The Twin Vortices Supercharger is a lot more efficient than the older roots style blowers. Not sure how true this is but I read some stuff comparing the TS to the TVS on a corvette or mustang forum. Bunch of stuff with 3D efficiency maps and junk. The suggestion is that above ~15psi or so the twin screw was slightly more efficient and below that, the TVS was slightly more efficient. It really sounds like a tossup between the two.

Between the two TVS blowers, my pick is the Edelbrock. The oil filter thing is a blunder on Magnussons part if you ask me and the biggest reason that I skipped it. That said, the Maggy does sit more directly on top of the motor and seems to be centered whereas the Edelbrock is offset. Not sure how that might affect flow or pony count. In my opinion, the maggy would only be a better choice if you got a screaming deal on the kit as compared to the Edelbrock.

Also consider the tuning device. I think most of them are based on Diablosport. The Edelbrock comes with the SCT if you want the EO number and be smog legal. I actually have both the SCT and a Trinity.
PetrichorJeep is offline   Quote
Old 03-31-2016, 09:57 PM   #13
Supporting Member

WF Supporting Member
 
TerryC6's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Hesperia, CA
Posts: 7,324
I would side with Pickles here. I like the fact that a Turbo is load based. You only need it when you want it.
__________________
Terry

35" Baja MTZ P3's - Level 8 Tracker Pro 5 Wheels - Dynatrac ProGrip Brakes - MetalCloak 2.5" GC Suspension, 6Pak Edition - Griffin Attenuator - Artec Front Axle Armor - Nitro Axle Sleeves - JCR Vanguard Bumpers - Poison Spyder Brawler Rockers & Bombshell Diff Covers - RockHard 4x4 Skid's & Sport Cage - Genesis Dual Battery Kit with G Screen - SPOD - Zeon 10-S - VisionX headlights - Traildash 2 - Morris Mule Trailer
TerryC6 is online now   Quote
Old 03-31-2016, 10:03 PM   #14
Jeeper
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: SE Michigan
Posts: 1,401
Quote:
Originally Posted by PetrichorJeep View Post
I am also not a fan of all of that Exhaust rework that is required with the turbo. The exhaust flex joints make it a degree less reliable and remind me of my minivan. There is a lot of new exhaust plumbing in the engine compartment and it is not insulated and radiating heat in there that you were not getting before. Even with a turbo blanket, I am going to *speculate* that once they become saturated with heat, they become less effective. That and the down pipe is going to be throwing a ton of heat out and that is located in what has been established as one of the HOTTEST parts of the engine bay as it is – right behind the radiator.
* Pipes can be ceramic coated if you're concerned about heat (hot climate, etc).
* There are people running the turbo kit out on the sand dunes in the middle east in 120*F temps without heat issues. There's a "hot climate" package available, including a 180*F thermostat and an accompanying tune that runs the cooling fans at lower temps.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PetrichorJeep View Post
If RIPP requires an oil line then I would personally consider that to be slightly less reliable because it could break or leak badly.
The RIPP uses a Vortech V3 centrifugal supercharger unit with a self-contained oil system. no oil lines.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PetrichorJeep View Post
You can always carry a spare belt.
No reason to carry a spare belt with a turbo :-p

Quote:
Originally Posted by PetrichorJeep View Post
What kills turbos is heat. Oil lines can get coked up and plugged and then your bearing is going to be toast pretty quickly. ... Oil changes and oil quality are critical.
Quality full synthetic recommended, changed about every 5000 miles. I use Mobile 1. $25 for a 5 quart jug at Walmart.


Quote:
Originally Posted by PetrichorJeep View Post
I don’t think the Prodigy turbo is pushing more PSI than some of the other solutions
Stage 2 turbo runs at about 8 psi "out of the box", which is about the same as peak boost of the RIPP at sea level with the standard pulley. But RIPP only makes peak boost at 6400 rpm. Turbo makes near peak boost from about 4000 rpm through 6400 rpm in a 2nd gear acceleration. I've seen near peak boost as low as 3200 rpm in higher gears on the freeway (more engine load allows turbo to spool more at lower rpm). I'm actually running a bit higher boost with a boost controller, in the 9+ psi range.

Magnuson claims 6 psi.

Can't quickly find anything on Sprintex.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PetrichorJeep View Post
It is also the least reliable option. A lot of the Prodigy videos that I see are out on the drag strip with super lightweight 2 door rigs that do not appear as read lofor the trails as other rigs
Hypothetically less reliable. We have no actual data about reliability of any of the kits. Also, "less reliable" doesn't mean "unreliable". Even if the turbo is least reliable, how much less reliable is it really? Is it enough to be concerned about?

But yes, the turbo has the most components. If you assess reliability in a simplified way by counting how many components are there that could potentially fail, then yes, there are more things that could potentially go wrong with the turbo.

BTW - OEM turbos are relatively small and pushed closer to their limits. The turbo used in the Prodigy turbo kit is a bit over-sized (for various technical reasons worthy of its own thread), and is not being pushed anywhere near its limits in this application. I think this turbo in the Jeep should be more reliable than an OEM turbo... as long as you use good oil and change it, and don't immediately shut the engine down after running it hard.


Quote:
Originally Posted by PetrichorJeep View Post
Still - water/methanol injection on top of the blower install will add a good gain and reduce HP advantage that the turbo has.
Add water/meth injection to the turbo and the gap widens again. Add a few more supporting mods and turn the boost up even more with a boost controller and you suddenly have another huge gain with the turbo with minimal effort.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PetrichorJeep View Post
Also - and this is a personal preference thing - I do not like the sounds that the blow off valves make. From what I understand, you can get quieter valves and there may also be techniques to quite them further.
The particular BOV used on the turbo kit (TiAL Q) has a different body you can swap over for connecting a hose to turn it into a recirculating bypass valve. Just need to figure out the details of plumbing that hose back into the intake pre-turbo if you want to quiet down the BOV.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PetrichorJeep View Post
Emissions legal?
Turbo kit fine print is officially "for off road use only". No CARB certification. No specific attempts to pass any particular emissions tests.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PetrichorJeep View Post
If the air to air intercoolers were really that much more effective then I think the TS and TVS supercharger companies would figure out a way to incorporate them into their designs.
Not possible (at least not practical) due to the design of those superchargers. The compressor is mounted directly on top of the engine. To use an air-air intercooler, the air would have to be piped out of the supercharger, to the front of the vehicle, then back to the intake of the engine. The supercharger would end up needing to sit much higher above the engine to make room for all of that. It would also remove one of the advantages of that type of supercharger: the compressor being right on top of the engine intake producing instant response because there's no volume of air between the compressor and intake that needs to be pressurized.

The water cooled system is born out of necessity due to physical packaging limitations. Each transfer of heat between different materials is less than 100% efficient. Fewer heat transfers will be the most efficient at cooling quickly. The water cooling system has a closed system of circulating water that gets heat soaked in the engine compartment. So the hot intake air passes over a heat exchanger full of water that is substantially warmer than ambient outside air, with limited cooling capability.

With air-air intercooler, the hot intake air is being cooled directly by ambient temperature outside air. It's most definitely more efficient than air-water-air intercooling. The only way the water cooling system could match or beat air-air is if you chilled the water somehow. Some drag race cars have special intercoolers that they fill with ice water, dry ice, etc... stuff that can cool the intake air below ambient temperature. But that's only practical for drag racing because you have to refill the intercooler with fresh cold stuff before each run.
__________________
2013 Wrangler Sport (2DR) | Stick Shift | 4.10 Gears | TrueTrac LSD Front & Rear
33x12.5x15 Duratracs on 15x8 Black Rock D-Window Wheels
Prodigy Performance Stage 2 Turbo
AEV 2" Spacer Lift
Full Disclosure: Affiliated with Prodigy Performance as of 3/10/16 (explanation)
This is my personal account. My statements/opinions are my own; not Prodigy's
UselessPickles is offline   Quote
Old 03-31-2016, 10:25 PM
Thread Starter
  #15
Jeeper
 
IceManUAE's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: 21
I want to thank you for your answers and contribution .

However I have decided to go with either Sprintex or Magnuson


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
IceManUAE is offline   Quote
Old 03-31-2016, 10:44 PM   #16
Supporting Member

WF Supporting Member
 
Akfinest's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: East Tennessee
Posts: 106
Smile

Subscribed !
__________________
2012 Jeep Wrangler Sahara 2 Doors
Gecko Green

Built: 2/2012
Purchased used on: 2/2020





Akfinest is offline   Quote
Old 03-31-2016, 11:05 PM   #17
Jeeper
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: SE Michigan
Posts: 1,401
Quote:
Originally Posted by TerryC6 View Post
I would side with Pickles here. I like the fact that a Turbo is load based. You only need it when you want it.
But it does come at the cost of turbo lag. It's most noticeable when suddenly beginning a quick part-throttle acceleration from the lower half of the RPM range. It's also quite noticeable with a manual transmission when upshifting during a part-throttle spirited acceleration and dropping the engine speed back down into the lower RPM range, then continuing the quick acceleration.

An automatic transmission wouldn't experience the turbo lag after an upshift because it never fully closes the throttle during a shift, and keeps the turbo spooled during the shift.

With a manual transmission, if you really want to accelerate quickly, you're better off running up through the entire RPM range so that after you upshift, you land right around 4000 RPM where the turbo will spool up nearly instantly (especially if you shift quickly so the turbo has less time to lose speed). The turbo really rewards quick shifts with the manual transmission.
__________________
2013 Wrangler Sport (2DR) | Stick Shift | 4.10 Gears | TrueTrac LSD Front & Rear
33x12.5x15 Duratracs on 15x8 Black Rock D-Window Wheels
Prodigy Performance Stage 2 Turbo
AEV 2" Spacer Lift
Full Disclosure: Affiliated with Prodigy Performance as of 3/10/16 (explanation)
This is my personal account. My statements/opinions are my own; not Prodigy's
UselessPickles is offline   Quote
Old 03-31-2016, 11:11 PM   #18
Jeeper
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: SE Michigan
Posts: 1,401
Quote:
Originally Posted by IceManUAE View Post
I want to thank you for your answers and contribution .

However I have decided to go with either Sprintex or Magnuson
Be sure to to report back with your experience/thoughts. We need more info on the forums about all the forced induction mods so people can more easily decide which fits their needs/wants best.

The real problem is that no one seems to have experience with multiple options. It's hard to describe differences between different options when everyone involved in the discussion only has experience with zero or one option.

I think we need to arrange some kind of Jeep power adder meet to get vehicles with many different options together in one place to compare and contrast
__________________
2013 Wrangler Sport (2DR) | Stick Shift | 4.10 Gears | TrueTrac LSD Front & Rear
33x12.5x15 Duratracs on 15x8 Black Rock D-Window Wheels
Prodigy Performance Stage 2 Turbo
AEV 2" Spacer Lift
Full Disclosure: Affiliated with Prodigy Performance as of 3/10/16 (explanation)
This is my personal account. My statements/opinions are my own; not Prodigy's
UselessPickles is offline   Quote
Old 03-31-2016, 11:23 PM
Thread Starter
  #19
Jeeper
 
IceManUAE's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: 21
In looking for a good dealer for Sprintex that gives good prices and discounts.

Might order for myself and my cousin

I have already received an email from one vendor with a nice discount but looking for a better price than the one quoted.

Anyone knows a good dealer for Sprintex??


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
IceManUAE is offline   Quote
Old 04-01-2016, 11:19 AM   #20
Jeeper
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: Northern California
Posts: 456
Quote:
Originally Posted by IceManUAE View Post
I want to thank you for your answers and contribution .

However I have decided to go with either Sprintex or Magnuson
Excellent choices - like there was a bad one. I am very curious about the Sprintex myself. Looks like a great design - most notably a TS sitting on top of plastic manifolds.

Quote:
Originally Posted by UselessPickles View Post
But it does come at the cost of turbo lag. It's most noticeable when suddenly beginning a quick part-throttle acceleration from the lower half of the RPM range. It's also quite noticeable with a manual transmission when upshifting during a part-throttle spirited acceleration and dropping the engine speed back down into the lower RPM range, then continuing the quick acceleration.

An automatic transmission wouldn't experience the turbo lag after an upshift because it never fully closes the throttle during a shift, and keeps the turbo spooled during the shift.

With a manual transmission, if you really want to accelerate quickly, you're better off running up through the entire RPM range so that after you upshift, you land right around 4000 RPM where the turbo will spool up nearly instantly (especially if you shift quickly so the turbo has less time to lose speed). The turbo really rewards quick shifts with the manual transmission.
My view of the world.... despite the linear build up of boost with a belt driven SC, I can still mash the throttle and get instant boost and power. More so with the intake opened up and water/meth with the timing cranked up. Even before, it was pretty instant on.

When you mash the throttle, the bypass valve slams the friggen door shut and game on! I can mash the throttle down as low as 2k-2.2k RPM and pull myself out of a hole so to speak. It would be better to mash the throttle a little higher at like 2.5k rpm. I can do that and pull hard all the way through red line.

I have the water/meth tuned based on injector duty cycle and it also atomizes very well compared to other designs. I have it set to fade in low and have the ignition timing cranked up in that lower rpm range (that is where I focused my tuning time). Again - mash the throttle... ECU cracks the whip, cranks up timing and the sprayer starts spraying. Instant! No lag! No bog!

Also, with a manual transmission, I drive this thing more like my NA E46 with a custom tune. I like very responsive engines and almost always rev match when shifting. (I use the transmission and engine braking versus the disc brakes).
PetrichorJeep is offline   Quote
Old 04-01-2016, 11:26 AM
Thread Starter
  #21
Jeeper
 
IceManUAE's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: 21
After reading a lot and talking to JK owners with first hand experience.

I think the Sprintex is the choice for me.

My cousin has a Magnuson on his 2014 JKU , Auto and recommends the Sprintex over the Magnuson.
That should say something.

Anyways, still looking for a Sprintex dealer


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
IceManUAE is offline   Quote
Old 04-01-2016, 11:27 AM   #22
Jeeper
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: Northern California
Posts: 456
Quote:
Originally Posted by UselessPickles View Post
Be sure to to report back with your experience/thoughts. We need more info on the forums about all the forced induction mods so people can more easily decide which fits their needs/wants best.

The real problem is that no one seems to have experience with multiple options. It's hard to describe differences between different options when everyone involved in the discussion only has experience with zero or one option.

I think we need to arrange some kind of Jeep power adder meet to get vehicles with many different options together in one place to compare and contrast
If someone wants to send me free stuff to test and maybe fund/offset my labor (in beer, jeep swag or other cool jeep things), I will pull my Edelbrock and install what you send me.

I could pull it all back off and send you the parts when I am done. The Edelbrock is staying on long term regardless of outcome.

Maybe Prodigy can send me their full kit with boost controller for a free test and write up. Looks like we can "twin charge" a 3.6L with the available parts (like mating one of the TS or TVS blower kits with the turbo - not the RIPP). Send me the stuff and I will build it. I'll spray it with WM50 too!!! It might be a little bit of a b*tch to get tuned but it still sounds like a great project.
PetrichorJeep is offline   Quote
Old 04-01-2016, 12:06 PM   #23
Jeeper
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: Northern California
Posts: 456
Heat Soak?

Mr.P_0_0_P brings up some great points about heat soak. There is more to what he is saying. Reading the post could leave one with the impression that a roots-style blower is just plain bad and the next best thing to pouring molten metal down the intake and centrifugal hair dryers are the only real solution. Personally, I am well aware of the virtues of a centrifugal and have had the fortune to meet and speak personally with Mr. Steve Dinan, who also believes this wholeheartedly believes that centrifugal is the way to go for the same reasons. This is why they use them exclusively.


Heat soak is a fact of life and affect us all, NA as well as FI and regardless of FI style. Back in the day, when mechanics still had to diagnose stuff, diagnosing post-heatsoak drivability issues was fairly common. My stock 3.6 with plastic manifolds still exhibited heat soak on hot days, especially after running and sitting.

Sure, maybe the blower and manifolds are aluminum but there are much larger objects in the engine bay that retain and dissipate heat slowly over time. Ummm... You forgot about the engine and the converters bolted to it. Heat rises and goes through that plastic manifold too.

True, maybe the roots style configurations retain a little more heat than other designs but how much of a problem is that really? It is not like the other designs eliminate heat soak?

Anyway, the heat soak dissipates as soon as the vehicle starts moving and the engine starts swallowing cooler air. If you spray water or water meth, you can watch the temps drop as soon as the sprayer is on. It will also drop when you are boosting. So on a logger, the boost goes up and then IATs stay level and then drop several degrees through redline.

I would also like to suggest that (apparently?) nobody has actually measured the differences in IATs in a more scientific way.

I doubt that it would be a fair comparison anyway. Here is why.... The IAT sensor (thermistor) is not only changed to a different style but is moved to a much hotter location in the engine.

The stock IAT thermistor is a plastic housing shied into a rubber intake hose.

The one supplied with the edelbrock kit is not only a brass design (probably retains more heat and reads higher - just guessing) but it has also been moved to intake manifold, just in front of the intake valve. On top of that, it is installed by probably one of the hottest cylinders in the engine bay (rear most, passenger side).

Anyone wanting to do IAT comparisons should really relocate the stock sensor to where the edelbrock puts it. You could log the results and post them versus making stuff up. You will have to be a little bit of an electrician and extent the IAT sensor harness but that should be cake.

The hottest IATs I saw last summer were about 150 degrees or so on the really hot days. That was before the water/meth. Jeep still ran fine and was still a lot more powerful than NA.

FWIW, I had an "hot side" Eaton roots blower (roots, not TVS) on Miata and it was mounted right above the header. Talk about heat soak! Not intercooled either and no water injection. Heat soak was still noticeable but at the same time, the car was still faster than it was before and still ran well. Just a relatively sluggish in the heat - just like it was when NA.

Still, I can see where you are in a competitive situation, the timing of heat soak could cost you a race, where the other guy is not heat soaked.

Out on the trail, in traffic, waiting for folks to clear the trail, all of your buddies in the group will likely be heat soaked, regardless of what is under the hood.

Still, regardless of FI choice, you are still throwing hot air down the intake. You need to cool that to decrease detonation whether you do it with an intercooler or water injection or a combination of both. Adding just (distilled) water injection would be an act of kindness to your motor. Water injection alone allows you to push the limits (more boost, more timing advance but NOT beyond MBT as well as tune the fuel a little leaner).

edit:
Heat soak has been around for a LOOOONG time. I remember reading an interesting article published in one of the hot rod magazines back in the early 1980s. Someone modified a factory airbox and mated it to an A/C evaporator (the part that normally mounts under your dash) to cool IATs. He got them way down but it was not worth the effort. It would be great to re-find that old article.
PetrichorJeep is offline   Quote
Old 04-01-2016, 12:08 PM   #24
Jeeper
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: Northern California
Posts: 456
Quote:
Originally Posted by IceManUAE View Post
After reading a lot and talking to JK owners with first hand experience.

I think the Sprintex is the choice for me.

My cousin has a Magnuson on his 2014 JKU , Auto and recommends the Sprintex over the Magnuson.
That should say something.

Anyways, still looking for a Sprintex dealer


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I would have picked the sprintex over the maggy as well. I could not/still cannot get past the oil filter snafu that they designed into the system.

Please post pics of your project. Very interested. Fair warning, I am going to try and get you hooked on meth like I am. It's the least I can do.
PetrichorJeep is offline   Quote
Old 04-01-2016, 12:16 PM
Thread Starter
  #25
Jeeper
 
IceManUAE's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: 21
I will post pics for sure and try to post some videos of the the performance on road and off road.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
IceManUAE is offline   Quote
Old 04-01-2016, 02:29 PM   #26
Jeeper
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: Northern California
Posts: 456
Responding to Pickles....

OEM turbos pushed to the limits? How do you figure? My (admittedly ancient) experience suggests otherwise. First of all, factory turbo motors have reduced compression (say, ~8:1 versus the same motor in NA form at ~9:1). Though boost numbers were never published, we had ways (through the parts department as I seem to recall) to know what the boost was. Specs were not published in the service manuals that I recall in those days.

OEM turbo systems also tend to employ fully insulated exhaust systems. They are not single wall. It is basically a single wall wrapped with an insulation and then encased with more sheet metal. Even the turbos had heat shields. Some Subaru models even had air venting designed in to let hot air escape directly up when stopped.

Sure, pipes can be coated and wrapped but if you dig deeper and read the fine print, that only has limited impact. Not sure how theses things compare to OEM approaches anyway. You are still throwing heat out. Even when not on boost. It is also not quite that binary where you are only throwing tons of heat on boost. Okay, you are in away generating it in a more binary way but that (cast iron?) housing takes time to cool down and you will still be throwing heat off of that down pipe for a little but as it cools to a less hot temp.

Original turbos were not tied to the cooling system. later ones are. New bearing technologies have obviously changed things but if you starve the bearing of lubrication, you are still going to kill it.

I would argue that factory turbos - at least the ones that I worked on years ago were not pushed to their limits. Rather, turbocharging the cars in general pushed things to the limits.

Sure, your desert examples are interesting here. I am saying something different though and I won't be taking my rig to the sand or desert any time soon anyway. What happens here is the motor cooks over time due to the long term effects of the high heat and hot/cold cycles. O-rings become deformed and hard as a rook. intake tubes crack when you touch them. The parts guys loved it when a turbo Subaru with was a leaker at ~80k miles or so. You basically had to order one of every single rubber o-ring or hose on that motor and meticulously rebuild everything.

Sure, you can put water/meth on your turbo rig but two things there.... Did you already post about being afraid of making more HP than you already are for fear of chucking a rod out the side of your pentastar? True though, you would widen the gap again and I would totally be doing it too with a turbo. What you are not factoring is price. Edelbrock + Aquamist ($5,500 + $800) = $6,300. Plus add to that $350 or so to add a K&N CAI to replace the stock air box and you come to ~$6,650 for a really great running TVS system that will be putting out a verified 10psi at redline in 4th gear. What do you get for that price in the Prodigy model and how much more HP is it in that case?

HA! No CARP approval on the Prodigy. Anyone want to guess as to why they have not even tried? Wait!!!! ME!! ME!! ME!!! It is the catalytic converter relocation to say the least. To be legal, the converter would need to be hanging off of the turbo instead of that down pipe. Again, that is already the hottest part of the engine bay. Another factor here might be that the turbo kit makes no attempt to replace the mandatory enclosed air box.

My air to water intercooler has not proven inefficient. It seems to be working and doing its job. I can also jump out of the rig and feel the radiator cool to the touch after a drive. WMI definitely helps things here and will help with air to air as well.

Goof to know on the self contained bearing on the RIPP. I was too lazy to double check. A lot of centrifugal blowers require this. Did RIPP used to require it?

It would be lame to think that you don't need to carry a spare belt with a turbo. Your single point of failure is still that water pump and you should probably have a spare belt with you anyway. It wouldn't be a terrible idea regardless of FI, NA or V8. Still, with serpentine belts, you do get a lot of warning before they go.

What you should carry for sure is extra coolant of the correct type (might not be the same as your radiator - HOAT or OAT etc) with a turbo because if you loose that cooler, that is a recipe for a cracked turbo housing before you get home.

Yes, you will defiantly want to use the best oil you can, what ever you decide that is. You don't get the latitude to push extremes with a turbocharged motor that you might otherwise NA. Don't let the oil break down and don't let it get too dirty.

That, and if I was to go for a turbo, I would also opt for the better ceramic bearing.
PetrichorJeep is offline   Quote
Old 04-01-2016, 03:14 PM   #27
Jeeper
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: Northern California
Posts: 456
Mr.P_0_0_P

You suggest that the TVS blower is small. Maybe it is. Interestingly, I would tend to agree because the 3.6l seems to be one of the larger motors that this particular tvs rotor pack is used on.

Still, I am seeing in the logs and registering boost real time at anything above 1k rpm and it just goes on from there right to red line. Out of the box, I verified 8psi. After opening the intake and adding the WMI system, I can just crest past 10psi in the logs (and the "peak" reading on the soft gauge). In terms of boost level, I don't think I want any more PSI on the stock motor. Still the key to that is spraying!!

May I suggest that you log how much boost your RIPP is putting and post it on up here in the thread. I have done the same elsewhere and can do it here as well. Be sure to log MAP and BARO because the amount of boost you are seeing is MAP - BARO (Manifold Absolute Pressure minus Barometric Pressure). Also log RPM and vehicle speed so we can see what gear you are in. You will log the most boost in a higher gear at redline.

Sure, the centrifugal may be throwing out more air volume (not pressure) at peak output but where does the power fall in the usable RPM range?

edit:
Pickles: couple of more tidbits on the older factory turbos... What I forgot to say is that even with the lowered compression, the factory turbos were only putting out 6-8 PSI anyway. That and you really did not see much boost until way up top, giving their old reputation for lag. The newer cars are likely pushing the limits more but I am out of touch there.
PetrichorJeep is offline   Quote
Old 04-01-2016, 04:48 PM   #28
Jeeper
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: SE Michigan
Posts: 1,401
Quote:
Originally Posted by PetrichorJeep View Post
despite the linear build up of boost with a belt driven SC, I can still mash the throttle and get instant boost and power.
Yup; that's one of the big benefits of a belt-driven supercharger compared to a turbo.


Quote:
Originally Posted by PetrichorJeep View Post
The hottest IATs I saw last summer were about 150 degrees or so on the really hot days. That was before the water/meth. Jeep still ran fine and was still a lot more powerful than NA.
Where is your IAT sensor? Upstream, or doenstream of the compressor?

I've noticed on some of the supercharger kits, the IAT sensor is upstram of the compressor, meaning that it's measuring the air BEFORE it gets compressed and heated. If your IAT sensor is located upstream of the compressor, then the IAT readings in your data logs are extremely optimistic.

Is that 150*F IAT during "normal driving", or at the end of a high load full throttle boosted acceleration?

Quote:
Originally Posted by PetrichorJeep View Post
OEM turbos pushed to the limits? How do you figure?
Not pushed to the limits, but closer to the limits. For example, stock WRX STi turbos make about 15 psi from the factory. People generally only push the stock turbo to the the low 20's psi range max. And at that point, they're already pushing the turbo beyond its efficiency range, because boost drops way off to the 16 psi range at redline.

The Precision 5862 in the Prodigy kit is marketed as a 650 hp turbo, and people are running 20-30 psi boost in other vehicles with this turbo. This turbo is barely breaking a sweat as used on the Wrangler.


Quote:
Originally Posted by PetrichorJeep View Post
OEM turbo systems also tend to employ fully insulated exhaust systems. They are not single wall.
I have not heard of this. Can you point to examples? A quick search for WRX STi headers, for example, seems to show that they are single wall pipes with some heat shields bolted on/around some sections of it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PetrichorJeep View Post
Even the turbos had heat shields.
Turbo blanked serves takes care of this on the Prodigy kit. It works well. I can touch the turbo blanket on mine immediately after driving.


Quote:
Originally Posted by PetrichorJeep View Post
Did you already post about being afraid of making more HP than you already are for fear of chucking a rod out the side of your pentastar?
I'm sure I said something somewhere about not wanting to turn the boost up any higher than Prodigy recommends. I have no specific knowledge that more boost would be harmful to the lower end of the stock engine. In fact, Prodigy is already pushing it further with all stock internals, and they plan to go even further with an engine rebuild. They should be wrapping up those projects and announcing details later this year.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PetrichorJeep View Post
~$6,650 for a really great running TVS system that will be putting out a verified 10psi at redline in 4th gear. What do you get for that price in the Prodigy model and how much more HP is it in that case?
Depends on what options you go with. That's about the high end of the most expensive options for the Stage 1 kit, which makes about 330 hp and 340 ft-lbs at the wheels on about 6.8 psi boost.

$6,999 is the low end of the Stage 2 kit which makes about 370+ hp and 370+ ft-lbs at the wheels on about 8.2 psi boost.

Turbos are much more efficient than superchargers, so less boost is needed to get big results.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PetrichorJeep View Post
Another factor here might be that the turbo kit makes no attempt to replace the mandatory enclosed air box.
How does RIPP have CARB approval if an enclosed air box is required?

Quote:
Originally Posted by PetrichorJeep View Post
Goof to know on the self contained bearing on the RIPP. I was too lazy to double check. A lot of centrifugal blowers require this. Did RIPP used to require it?
RIPP has always used units with self-contained lubrication as far as I know. Never needed an oil feed line.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PetrichorJeep View Post
It would be lame to think that you don't need to carry a spare belt with a turbo. ...Still, with serpentine belts, you do get a lot of warning before they go.
The turbo does not add any load to the belt, so there's no additional concern about the belt beyond whatever concern you might have about the belt on a stock engine failing. If your belt is old or showing signs of ending its life, then replace it or carry a spare. Turbo has no impact on this decision.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PetrichorJeep View Post
What you should carry for sure is extra coolant of the correct type (might not be the same as your radiator - HOAT or OAT etc) with a turbo because if you loose that cooler, that is a recipe for a cracked turbo housing before you get home.
Turbo is not water cooled, btw.


Quote:
Originally Posted by PetrichorJeep View Post
That, and if I was to go for a turbo, I would also opt for the better ceramic bearing.
Dual ceramic ball bearing is an upgrade option. Spools a bit quicker.
__________________
2013 Wrangler Sport (2DR) | Stick Shift | 4.10 Gears | TrueTrac LSD Front & Rear
33x12.5x15 Duratracs on 15x8 Black Rock D-Window Wheels
Prodigy Performance Stage 2 Turbo
AEV 2" Spacer Lift
Full Disclosure: Affiliated with Prodigy Performance as of 3/10/16 (explanation)
This is my personal account. My statements/opinions are my own; not Prodigy's
UselessPickles is offline   Quote
Old 04-01-2016, 05:13 PM   #29
Jeeper
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: Northern California
Posts: 456
I turned in my wrenches before wrx came out. I worked on the really old stuff. They first started putting turbos on the old push rod motors with the green valve covers. Those are the ones that had to be converted from oil only to being tied to the water jacket. I worked on the next generation after that as well the "L" or "Loyalle" series when they first went to OHC and cam belts. Both of those models came with the double walled exhaust. Not sure about anything later. Mazdas did too.

Even if you used to own one of these cars, you would know that the exhaust is double walled. They failed all of the time. The heat was contained so they would become more brittle and crack inside. The would be somewhat muffled and not necessarily very audible at first due to the double walls. Sometimes the complaint would just be a rattly exhaust and maybe a little lack of power.

My IAT sensor is after the blower and after the IC. Both sit on top of the motor. The IAT sensor is within a couple fingers reach of the PCV valve and back up against the firewall.

New turbos have no doubt come a long way on many levels from when I was working on the old stuff. Heat still exists, though and I still will probably never put one on my jeep. I still find your implementation interesting none the less. And it does seem to produce good low end which is a good thing.

Sure. Nobody is questioning turbo efficiencies. It takes some parasitic loss to spin that pump. Still, even at the lower boost level. the price point and HP is about the same on the parts alone.

Not water cooled? What is that thing I saw? An oil cooler then? I can see that as doing the same job. Like I mentioned, the older turbos that didn't have some form of cooling all died early deaths. The few that didn't got replaced as part of that old Subaru campaign. I saved a couple of the yet to be failed warranty take offs and gave them to a couple of friends. Nobody found a way to install them on anything.

If Prodigy starts pushing more boost, I would venture to say that their solution will include some water. That is what will let you get more boost out of the stock motor. Meth will raise the octane and cool in cylinder temps. I think there is an assumption that you can extract more HP with pure water than with pure meth because you can push limits farther and into extremes. Ideal is to use 50/50.
PetrichorJeep is offline   Quote
Old 04-01-2016, 05:17 PM   #30
Jeeper
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: Northern California
Posts: 456
Quote:
Originally Posted by UselessPickles View Post
How does RIPP have CARB approval if an enclosed air box is required?
Actually, I do not know. Maybe they found a way around it.

They do offer this but i am not sure it is a required component of their kit for CARB certification and the EO number.

RIPP Sealed Air Box for Pentastar 2012+ 3.6 Jeep Wrangler — RIPP Superchargers - Superchargers for Jeep, Dodge, RAM and Chrysler

PetrichorJeep is offline   Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off






All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:50 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.1
User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging v3.1.0 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2020 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
vBulletin Security provided by vBSecurity v2.2.2 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2020 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

Jeep®, Wrangler, Liberty, Wagoneer, Cherokee, Gladiator, Mopar and Grand Cherokee are copyrighted and trademarked to FCA US LLC.
Wranglerforum.com is not in any way associated with FCA US LLC.