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Old 09-04-2017, 12:09 AM
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Spark knock

I have a 2017 Wrangler Unlimited Sport. I have been experiencing spark knock just about since new. It has approximately 4,700 miles on it. I have noticed it is not as bad when I use high octane gas. The owners manual calls for 87 octane so I expect it to run without issue on 87 octane. I use the same three gas stations all of which are Top Tier listed companies. Costco, Exxon and Valero. I have also ran a full bottle of Redline fuel treatment with PEA with no improvement. Please let me know if any of you have had similar issues. I appreciate any suggestions. I don't use cheap gas!

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Old 09-04-2017, 12:30 AM   #2
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What leads you to believe it has spark knock?
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Old 09-04-2017, 07:21 AM   #3
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Cool Why do they call it "premium" ?

I use Premium all the time , because I like to avoid any issues , and I would also ask an experienced Jeep mechanic in your area for his opinion ; maybe this issue will lead you to a best mechanic for the future , maybe not .
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Old 09-04-2017, 07:45 AM   #4
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"Spark knock" is a misnomer. You have detonation, normally caused by insufficient octane. My 2012 refuse to run 87 without detonating. I run 89 octane and it performes fine.
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Old 09-04-2017, 08:08 AM   #5
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If you are indeed experiencing knocking, whether caused by detonation or pre-ignition, you have a serious problem which will ruin your engine. Why has your dealer not repaired it under warranty? The Pentastar engine should perform exactly the same with any 87 or above gas; same horsepower, same torque, same mileage, same emissions, etc
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Old 09-04-2017, 08:10 AM   #6
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I should have said any Top Tier 87 or above.
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Old 09-04-2017, 08:13 AM   #7
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I have had the similar issue on my '14 JKU since I bought it new. I have taken it in to have it checked several times. One of the results was that it was not a fouled plug. Overall conclusion...detonation. However, it does it (though not as severe) with 91 octane as well. Almost beginning to ignore it now.
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Old 09-04-2017, 09:14 AM   #8
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I would be checking with the dealer immediately.
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Old 09-04-2017, 10:06 AM   #9
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Knock, spark-knock, pre-ignition, rattle, ping, detonation, dieseling etc etc etc are all the same thing. It's a result of the air/fuel mixture igniting before the spark plug fires during the compression stroke. At best it will cause a ticking or pinging sound and at worst it can knock holes in pistons.

I got my 2016 JK new last winter. I'm at just over 5000 miles and it's never pinged. However, a little bit when the engine is hot and under load can happen. If yours is doing it all the time, I'd keep after the dealer to do something about it. (It would drive me crazy ).... Using premium fuel is an expensive way to fix something that shouldn't need fixing.

FWIW I snipped the image below directly from my 2016 JK owner's manual. (It should appear in other manuals for JK's equipped with the Pentastar as well).
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Old 09-04-2017, 03:56 PM   #10
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Cool Mechanics recomment Premium for 10 cents more

Quote:
Originally Posted by jwt873 View Post

Using premium fuel is an expensive way to fix something that shouldn't need fixing.

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For my money , using Premium fuel is an Inexpensive way to avoid detonation , help the Jeep perform better , and follow the advise of countless mechanics .
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Old 09-05-2017, 02:56 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by jwt873 View Post
Knock, spark-knock, pre-ignition, rattle, ping, detonation, dieseling etc etc etc are all the same thing. It's a result of the air/fuel mixture igniting before the spark plug fires during the compression stroke. At best it will cause a ticking or pinging sound and at worst it can knock holes in pistons.

I got my 2016 JK new last winter. I'm at just over 5000 miles and it's never pinged. However, a little bit when the engine is hot and under load can happen. If yours is doing it all the time, I'd keep after the dealer to do something about it. (It would drive me crazy ).... Using premium fuel is an expensive way to fix something that shouldn't need fixing.

FWIW I snipped the image below directly from my 2016 JK owner's manual. (It should appear in other manuals for JK's equipped with the Pentastar as well).
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This is not true.


Detonation occures when the the spark plug has successfully ignited the mixture but before the entire charge can be burned from a single flame front, the rise in cylinder pressure causes the remaining charge to combust in an extreme manner, similar to an explosion. This causes the "ping" that you hear.

Pre-ignition is caused when a hot spot in the combustion chamber or on the piston causes the charge to be ignited before the ignition fires, hence the term.

Octane ratings are a number that suggest a resistance to knock, or detonation. The higher the number, the more resistance the fuel has to knock. With the relatively tame compression of a street engine 87-93 octane is acceptable. A racing engine with 13:5:1 compression ratio puts much more stress on the fuel mixture charge and is much more susceptible to knock. This is why racing fuel can be upwards of 112 octane or more.

Knock is a way of the engine to say, you're pushing me too hard with the fuel supplied, if you want me to work harder, give me better gas.

Many modern engines have knock sensors, and will retard the ignition timing in order to bring knock under control.

Detonation(knock) is an extremely bad thing for and engine. Left unchecked it will cause severe or catastrophic damage. There is normally a small boundary layer of gas(not gasoline) attached to the crown of the piston. The violent nature of the knock event scrubs this boundary layer away and exposes the crown to the full heat of the combustion action. Left unchecked it will eventually overheat the crown, first causing it to sag, then eventually melt through.
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Old 09-05-2017, 07:39 AM   #12
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FWIW I snipped the image below directly from my 2016 JK owner's manual. (It should appear in other manuals for JK's equipped with the Pentastar as well).
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With mine, I don't hear it when idling. I would hear it when accelerating. Based on that image, it sounds relative. How would one decide what level would be considered light or heavy? I guess the service folks deemed mine to be not.

I will be bringing it up again next time it goes in so we'll see.
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Old 09-05-2017, 07:40 AM   #13
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Cool 63Expert is Excellent .

Quoting 63Expert :

"Knock is a way of the engine to say, you're pushing me too hard with the fuel supplied, if you want me to work harder, give me better gas.
Detonation(knock) is an extremely bad thing for and engine. Left unchecked it will cause severe or catastrophic damage."

Thank you , 63Expert . By the way , Dale Earnhart used Premium .
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Old 09-05-2017, 08:06 AM   #14
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The problem with using an octane rating higher that what is recommended is you are getting an incomplete fuel burn. This is building carbon up in the engine which will lead to pre-ingnition in the future.

All modern engines are designed to ride the knock sensor, both for power and fuel economy plus emission requirements. The timing tables for our engines are setup for 87 octane fuel. There is not enough advance to effectively burn a higher octane fuel.

Knock sensors can a do fail and if you are getting audible knock there is a good chance one has failed or is not working correctly. Running a higher octane fuel is just masking the problem and in the long run will only make matters worse.
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Old 09-05-2017, 08:29 AM   #15
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Quote:
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The problem with using an octane rating higher that what is recommended is you are getting an incomplete fuel burn. This is building carbon up in the engine which will lead to pre-ingnition in the future.

All modern engines are designed to ride the knock sensor, both for power and fuel economy plus emission requirements. The timing tables for our engines are setup for 87 octane fuel. There is not enough advance to effectively burn a higher octane fuel.

Knock sensors can a do fail and if you are getting audible knock there is a good chance one has failed or is not working correctly. Running a higher octane fuel is just masking the problem and in the long run will only make matters worse.
This creates questions.

If my engine audibly knocks on 87 you are saying it must have a bad knock sensor? There is no CEL

I do not know about the latest engines and their management systems, but years of working on motorcycles always showed that engines run on premium fuel, no matter the octane requirements, were considerably cleaner internally. One of the biggest differences was intake valve deposits.

There are many factors to be considered, but I would say the Pentastar is designed to tolerate a considerable amount of knock, hence the note in the manual, and the fact that mine knocks easily with anything more than half throttle on 87 with no indication of a failed knock sensor.
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Old 09-05-2017, 11:41 PM   #16
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I think there is some confusion between "Premium" and "High Octane".
This is what I mean by both terms:
High Octane doesn't burn cleaner or more completely. It just resists detonation and pre-ignition.
Top Tier is an example of a Premium fuel. It will keep your top end and fuel system cleaner.
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Old 09-06-2017, 01:25 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by TerryC6 View Post
The problem with using an octane rating higher that what is recommended is you are getting an incomplete fuel burn. This is building carbon up in the engine which will lead to pre-ingnition in the future.

All modern engines are designed to ride the knock sensor, both for power and fuel economy plus emission requirements. The timing tables for our engines are setup for 87 octane fuel. There is not enough advance to effectively burn a higher octane fuel.

Knock sensors can a do fail and if you are getting audible knock there is a good chance one has failed or is not working correctly. Running a higher octane fuel is just masking the problem and in the long run will only make matters worse.
If you were running 110 octane race gas, unburn fuel may be an issue, a full tank of 89 or 91 in your JK won't be.

Have you ever looked at your timing map? do you know how many adders/modifiers in that map are in effect?, Have you ever seeing a histogram of how knock retard looks like in your JK from the factory with the low grade gas? In case you never seeing it, and I wouldn't blame you, there is KR, and lots of it when it's hot out, if timing weren't so advanced in certain areas, and let me be specific, is not in your WOT ranges, where everybody rarely goes.. , but more in the cruising rpm/high engine load, where 98% of Jeep owners spent their life at, that KR would be non existent, that is, on a more thought out 87 octane tune...

Don't confuse knock retard strategies with your stuff being tuned for 87 octane, if you only knew what you had in reality, I bet the house , your comments would be way different...

Some people living in hot areas may be more prone to rattling because of the low grade stuff, don't be affraid to run 89 or 91, but if your engine is still rattling with 91, take it to the dealer, and have them document the behavior, most should be able to run 87 without any issues like the manual says.
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Old 09-06-2017, 02:54 AM   #18
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Quote:
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If you were running 110 octane race gas, unburn fuel may be an issue, a full tank of 89 or 91 in your JK won't be.

Have you ever looked at your timing map? do you know how many adders/modifiers in that map are in effect?, Have you ever seeing a histogram of how knock retard looks like in your JK from the factory with the low grade gas? In case you never seeing it, and I wouldn't blame you, there is KR, and lots of it when it's hot out, if timing weren't so advanced in certain areas, and let me be specific, is not in your WOT ranges, where everybody rarely goes.. , but more in the cruising rpm/high engine load, where 98% of Jeep owners spent their life at, that KR would be non existent, that is, on a more thought out 87 octane tune...

Don't confuse knock retard strategies with your stuff being tuned for 87 octane, if you only knew what you had in reality, I bet the house , your comments would be way different...

Some people living in hot areas may be more prone to rattling because of the low grade stuff, don't be affraid to run 89 or 91, but if your engine is still rattling with 91, take it to the dealer, and have them document the behavior, most should be able to run 87 without any issues like the manual says.
No have have not seen the timing tables but I do monitor knock in real time. Consider my driving envelope is sea level to 14000 feet, below zero temps to over 100 degrees and I have yet to see KR pulling max timing for more than a fraction of a second max. Much of the time I am running my mpg tune and that is running the engine as lean as possible all the time and I have still never heard any audible knock.

The way our engine (stock) is design if everything is perfect you will get the maximum performance out of 87 octane fuel. All timing is in, there is no more and it is not enough to take any advantage of a higher octane fuel and that equals an incomplete fuel burn. If IAT comes up, and it doesn't take much more timing is pulled making matters even worse.

I will concede that if you are knocking and you run a higher octane fuel it may go away but all you are doing is masking the problem. Kinda like throwing a fancy steering stabilizer in there to fix DW. Hell maybe I just have a good engine.
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Old 09-06-2017, 04:57 PM   #19
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No have have not seen the timing tables but I do monitor knock in real time. Consider my driving envelope is sea level to 14000 feet, below zero temps to over 100 degrees and I have yet to see KR pulling max timing for more than a fraction of a second max. Much of the time I am running my mpg tune and that is running the engine as lean as possible all the time and I have still never heard any audible knock.

The way our engine (stock) is design if everything is perfect you will get the maximum performance out of 87 octane fuel. All timing is in, there is no more and it is not enough to take any advantage of a higher octane fuel and that equals an incomplete fuel burn. If IAT comes up, and it doesn't take much more timing is pulled making matters even worse.

I will concede that if you are knocking and you run a higher octane fuel it may go away but all you are doing is masking the problem. Kinda like throwing a fancy steering stabilizer in there to fix DW. Hell maybe I just have a good engine.
I did post here somewhere, more specifics about timing and KR in my Jeep, with graphs and histograms, i had to back down the timing in the cruise RPM/high load areas, and that's with 91 octane.

I have 107k miles, running 91octane since i had 30k miles, changed my plugs at 88k miles, and they came out as they should do, zero issues with detonation, or plugs getting fouled up, i also have some extra timing in the WOT areas, and i don't get KR at WOT, i didn't get KR at WOT with 87 either, but again, the concern areas for me, as a tuner, were the high load cells in the cruise rpm, Knock retard will take care of that, for most of you guys in the factory tune, but because i can tune my timing/fuel in any range/way i want, i prefer to smooth out the timing table, with just enough timing to actually get some min KR, not the 7-9*i had before, that's my personal preference, and that does't mean the factory did something wrong, i just have the means to make it better my way.

I can see why some engines will ping, and for those, i'll say not to feel bad or discouraged by others when they say something is wrong is your engine if you're running anything other than 87, the factory says some rattle is ok, go figures, if some high octane cures it, by all means, don't be afraid to keep using it, i'm sure most engine pings are associated with the summer, again, if she's pinging with 91, and you have a factory tune, take it to the dealer so they document the behavior, and see if there is something to be concerned with.
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Old 09-08-2017, 08:04 AM   #20
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https://www.wranglerforum.com/f202/kn...l#post31309737

Here is my thread on this exact same issue.
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Old 12-13-2017, 08:02 PM
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I have ran a couple of tanks of non ethanol 87 octane gas and the knock was non existent. If I run premium 92 octane it is greatly reduced. 89 octane produces slight knock. The knock occurs under acceleration especially when going up an incline while accelerating. Thoughts?
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Old 12-14-2017, 02:10 PM   #22
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Sell it. Mine did this exact thing and was told that there was nothing they could do. I was forced to live it with and hope it didn't break down.

I am now in a nice Silverado and the quality and finish of everything is a huge step above the sub par stuff that FCA tries to pass as something worth spending money on.
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Old 12-15-2017, 06:15 PM   #23
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its the ethanol in the gas..... pentastars hate ethanol which is going to be interesting because the federal government wants to put up to 10% ethanol in the future.
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Old 12-16-2017, 04:14 AM   #24
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For my money , using Premium fuel is an Inexpensive way to avoid detonation , help the Jeep perform better , and follow the advise of countless mechanics .
Higher octane is for higher compression engines, it will do nothing for an engine not designed to run on it.
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its the ethanol in the gas..... pentastars hate ethanol which is going to be interesting because the federal government wants to put up to 10% ethanol in the future.
Um, it's already at 10%. Unless you are talking about adding 10% to the already 10%
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Old 12-16-2017, 08:23 AM   #25
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Higher octane is for higher compression engines, it will do nothing for an engine not designed to run on it.


Um, it's already at 10%. Unless you are talking about adding 10% to the already 10%
not in canada......
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Old 12-17-2017, 12:32 AM
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We have had 10% in the states for several years. Ethanol sucks! My Jeep runs so much better with non-ethanol gas
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Old 12-17-2017, 09:28 AM   #27
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We have had 10% in the states for several years. Ethanol sucks! My Jeep runs so much better with non-ethanol gas
What brand gas are you running?

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Old 12-17-2017, 10:18 AM   #28
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not in canada......
Depends on the province in Canada. It varies. In Manitoba 87 gas has to contain up to 10% ethanol.. 89 gas has to contain up to 5% ethanol and 91 gas is the pure stuff. This was mandated by the provincial government about 10 years ago.

The move is on in Canada and the US to bump gas up from E10 to E15. (15%) for non-flex fuel vehicles. (It may be there in some locations already).

My 2016 JK owner's manual warns against using gas with over 15% ethanol... So it would seem that the 2016 Pentastar is E15 compatible. (I've never tried it so I can't comment on how it performs).
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Old 12-18-2017, 05:22 AM
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I use only top tier gas when I have to use E10 gas. Costco, Mobil and Valero. I have no idea what brand the non- ethanol gas is, it is a locally owned family station/ tire shop. The local Exxon has non-ethanol gas as well but they have a sign that states it is not an Exxon product. It is also has a sign that says "marine" gas. It runs great
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Old 12-18-2017, 08:38 AM   #30
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You have a Chevron out there? if you do, try running Chevron gas with Techron.

Beware of the gas you run... one member here I know destroyed his 3.6L motor running gas from a mom and pop station.

Stay away from Valero, Arco and wholesale gas if you can.

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