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Old 11-24-2017, 06:24 PM
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Upper or lower rear control arms?

2015 JKU with 3.5" lift. Spring perches are already canted towards the rear but I understand if I'm only to replace 1 set of control arms I should pick uppers. Won't this cant the spring perches towards the rear even more? If I understand this right a lift has moved the diff assembly towards the front, and what I ultimately want to do is move it back towards the rear, right, but not at the expense of tilting the spring perches more. In my case wouldn't I choose a set of lower control arms? It seems that with the longer lower control arms this would move my diff assembly towards the back as well as rotate my spring perches so they are more up right. Is my logic sound? Thanks!

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Old 11-24-2017, 06:55 PM   #2
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You need to maintain a straight pinion angle for your drive shaft, so your only options for the perches are to either cut them off and reweld them in to position, or purchase 10* correction wedges to correct the spring bow. I run the wedges, and they work perfectly fine.

If you want to center the wheel up, you will need both upper and lower adjustable CAís to maintain the proper pinion angle. Iím not generally a RC fan, but their control arms are really heavy duty, and priced very good. $199 p/set.

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Old 11-24-2017, 09:24 PM   #3
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Rear uppers or both, only option... just lowers would kill your pinion angle. At 3.5 and above, you are best off correcting wheelbase as well, and that takes both sets.

Check out the Core4x4 arms from Allens Offroad. Really good stuff at a great price.
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Old 11-27-2017, 10:18 AM
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Thanks for the info guys. Since I'm a MetalCloak kind a guy I took advantage of their sale and bought upper rears. I'll follow that up with the lowers before year end and get my wheel base back
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Old 04-17-2019, 09:28 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pressurized View Post
Rear uppers or both, only option... just lowers would kill your pinion angle. At 3.5 and above, you are best off correcting wheelbase as well, and that takes both sets.

Check out the Core4x4 arms from Allens Offroad. Really good stuff at a great price.
Without researching for days, how much good is having the back 4 control arms.

And even the upper fronts.

I have the front lowers but my alignment was way off towed out again and I went through 18 tread depth on front tires to 12 and 15 random spot on depth in front tires.

The backs were an even 17 depth.

This all at only the first 4500 miles since tires were brand new.

I am thinking roatate every 2,500 miles or even 2,000 and possible do two alignments a yr.

Wondering how good the other control arms do.

I see that a lot of guys here just do front lowers and I followed that.
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Old 04-17-2019, 10:02 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thegreatwhitenorth View Post
Without researching for days, how much good is having the back 4 control arms.

And even the upper fronts.

I have the front lowers but my alignment was way off towed out again and I went through 18 tread depth on front tires to 12 and 15 random spot on depth in front tires.

The backs were an even 17 depth.

This all at only the first 4500 miles since tires were brand new.

I am thinking roatate every 2,500 miles or even 2,000 and possible do two alignments a yr.

Wondering how good the other control arms do.

I see that a lot of guys here just do front lowers and I followed that.
It depends on your lift height. Below 3" it's not worth much other than durability and just having better joints. Having the adjustable uppers would allow you to optimize your pinion angle.

In the rear, we get more concerned about centering the axle once you are 3.5" of lift or above. It rarely has anything to do with alignment, that comes from the rear trackbar.

It's also important to note that once you start centering the axle, you start bringing spring bow in to play... Sometimes it can be pretty severe and require aftermarket spring pads, etc.

It sounds like there is something else going on with your front alignment...
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Old 04-17-2019, 10:20 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thegreatwhitenorth View Post
Without researching for days, how much good is having the back 4 control arms.

And even the upper fronts.

I have the front lowers but my alignment was way off towed out again and I went through 18 tread depth on front tires to 12 and 15 random spot on depth in front tires.

The backs were an even 17 depth.

This all at only the first 4500 miles since tires were brand new.

I am thinking roatate every 2,500 miles or even 2,000 and possible do two alignments a yr.

Wondering how good the other control arms do.

I see that a lot of guys here just do front lowers and I followed that.
Toe has nothing to do with control arms. And it should not be changing like that. If toe is set right it should stay where it is set. You may have an issue with your tie rod, which is the one part that is related to toe.
That said, I like aftermarket control arms as they can allow you to set things like caster, pinion angle, and centering the wheels in the wheel wells. But that sort of thing is not always needed.
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Old 04-17-2019, 11:04 AM   #8
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Control arms do not have influence on the toe... That is solely in your tie rod.

When you are talking control arms, it's all about
1) Centering your axle (front to rear)
2) Correcting pinion angle

In doing so, you rotate the axle / springs. To fix the spring bulge you can
1) Use wedges (but if you off-road / flex enough to unseat the springs, you'll need spring keepers
2) Cut off the spring perches and relocate (I bought new ones from Synergy)

This causes other problems (on the rear)
1) I've had to relocate my sway bar back (used the back hole as the front, then drilled a new hole for the back - I was able to get a nut inside the frame without problem.)
2) My track bar bracket is within mm of my Fox 2.0 Resi shocks (haven't completely solved this problem - 2 options a) relocate the track bar bracket b) buy shock brackets to relocate mounting point of shocks.

Not sure what other problems, fixing problems, may exist... yet....

Result: J.E.E.P. - Just Empty Every Pocket



Quote:
Originally Posted by thegreatwhitenorth View Post
Without researching for days, how much good is having the back 4 control arms.

And even the upper fronts.

I have the front lowers but my alignment was way off towed out again and I went through 18 tread depth on front tires to 12 and 15 random spot on depth in front tires.

The backs were an even 17 depth.

This all at only the first 4500 miles since tires were brand new.

I am thinking roatate every 2,500 miles or even 2,000 and possible do two alignments a yr.

Wondering how good the other control arms do.

I see that a lot of guys here just do front lowers and I followed that.
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Old 04-17-2019, 11:07 AM   #9
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Pressure / Guzzi, you guys are quick! Haha, both replied before I finished my response. It's awesome to read your guys responses to get that different aspect / experiences with these things. I love the Jeep community!
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Old 04-17-2019, 11:35 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pressurized View Post
It depends on your lift height. Below 3" it's not worth much other than durability and just having better joints. Having the adjustable uppers would allow you to optimize your pinion angle.

In the rear, we get more concerned about centering the axle once you are 3.5" of lift or above. It rarely has anything to do with alignment, that comes from the rear trackbar.

It's also important to note that once you start centering the axle, you start bringing spring bow in to play... Sometimes it can be pretty severe and require aftermarket spring pads, etc.

It sounds like there is something else going on with your front alignment...

Yea I was just wondering about control arms and if I really needed them.

I got front lowers for alignment caster.

It be nice to have back arms to center wheels in wells and wheelbase, but money.

I did get alignment and it was way off toe out.

Now itís sweet, but itís like that everytime at first.

Wonder if I need two alignments a yr.

I prob go with 2500 rotation now after the fronts got worn fast.
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Old 04-17-2019, 11:44 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by GuzziMoto View Post
Toe has nothing to do with control arms. And it should not be changing like that. If toe is set right it should stay where it is set. You may have an issue with your tie rod, which is the one part that is related to toe.
That said, I like aftermarket control arms as they can allow you to set things like caster, pinion angle, and centering the wheels in the wheel wells. But that sort of thing is not always needed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by riverrat0341 View Post
Control arms do not have influence on the toe... That is solely in your tie rod.

When you are talking control arms, it's all about
1) Centering your axle (front to rear)
2) Correcting pinion angle

In doing so, you rotate the axle / springs. To fix the spring bulge you can
1) Use wedges (but if you off-road / flex enough to unseat the springs, you'll need spring keepers
2) Cut off the spring perches and relocate (I bought new ones from Synergy)

This causes other problems (on the rear)
1) I've had to relocate my sway bar back (used the back hole as the front, then drilled a new hole for the back - I was able to get a nut inside the frame without problem.)
2) My track bar bracket is within mm of my Fox 2.0 Resi shocks (haven't completely solved this problem - 2 options a) relocate the track bar bracket b) buy shock brackets to relocate mounting point of shocks.

Not sure what other problems, fixing problems, may exist... yet....

Result: J.E.E.P. - Just Empty Every Pocket
Quote:
Originally Posted by riverrat0341 View Post
Pressure / Guzzi, you guys are quick! Haha, both replied before I finished my response. It's awesome to read your guys responses to get that different aspect / experiences with these things. I love the Jeep community!
Holy didnít realize back control arms make that good then you have to do those others things. Ahhhh.

I only at 2.5 MC springs with 1.0 front spacer, so should be ok like pressurized said for 3 or less in lift.

I kind of rather not get into rotateing stuff like that.
Is a full complete lift kit come with stuff to do those rotations, since full kits have 8 arms.

Everything is aligned now, itís square and drove sweet today.
Just wanted to make sure I was doing right thing with just front lowers.
Did think back arms would make wheelbase better for driving, just not liking that rotate stuff.

I got road force balance machine, remount every tire, drives good now.

The last time I got alignment, they said tow out. A lot.
What did you guys say, it should stay in place once set right, but for how long. Is a yr normal or 6mths or longer then yr.

I thought one align,ent a yr was good enough, but maybe I need two.
I wish they could just ck it very yr at 6mths and not pay, to make sure. The pay to do it every 12 mths.
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Old 04-17-2019, 11:53 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thegreatwhitenorth View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by GuzziMoto View Post
Toe has nothing to do with control arms. And it should not be changing like that. If toe is set right it should stay where it is set. You may have an issue with your tie rod, which is the one part that is related to toe.
That said, I like aftermarket control arms as they can allow you to set things like caster, pinion angle, and centering the wheels in the wheel wells. But that sort of thing is not always needed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by riverrat0341 View Post
Control arms do not have influence on the toe... That is solely in your tie rod.

When you are talking control arms, it's all about
1) Centering your axle (front to rear)
2) Correcting pinion angle

In doing so, you rotate the axle / springs. To fix the spring bulge you can
1) Use wedges (but if you off-road / flex enough to unseat the springs, you'll need spring keepers
2) Cut off the spring perches and relocate (I bought new ones from Synergy)

This causes other problems (on the rear)
1) I've had to relocate my sway bar back (used the back hole as the front, then drilled a new hole for the back - I was able to get a nut inside the frame without problem.)
2) My track bar bracket is within mm of my Fox 2.0 Resi shocks (haven't completely solved this problem - 2 options a) relocate the track bar bracket b) buy shock brackets to relocate mounting point of shocks.

Not sure what other problems, fixing problems, may exist... yet....

Result: J.E.E.P. - Just Empty Every Pocket
Quote:
Originally Posted by riverrat0341 View Post
Pressure / Guzzi, you guys are quick! Haha, both replied before I finished my response. It's awesome to read your guys responses to get that different aspect / experiences with these things. I love the Jeep community!
Holy didn’t realize back control arms make that good then you have to do those others things. Ahhhh.

I only at 2.5 MC springs with 1.0 front spacer, so should be ok like pressurized said for 3 or less in lift.

I kind of rather not get into rotateing stuff like that.
Is a full complete lift kit come with stuff to do those rotations, since full kits have 8 arms.

Everything is aligned now, it’s square and drove sweet today.
Just wanted to make sure I was doing right thing with just front lowers.
Did think back arms would make wheelbase better for driving, just not liking that rotate stuff.

I got road force balance machine, remount every tire, drives good now.

The last time I got alignment, they said tow out. A lot.
What did you guys say, it should stay in place once set right, but for how long. Is a yr normal or 6mths or longer then yr.

I thought one align,ent a yr was good enough, but maybe I need two.
I wish they could just ck it very yr at 6mths and not pay, to make sure. The pay to do it every 12 mths.

Unless you "hit" something, your toe should stay put. I haven't changed mine in 3 years...
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2012 JKU Sahara - Pro Comp LED Headlights - PRS Audio mod- SWS - GraBars - Bestop Cargo Cover
- Mopar 2" Frankenlift - Teraflex Falcon Shocks - RE TB/Brackets - JKS mount/Bilstein stabilizer -
Rugged Ridge XHD
bumper - Yukon Gears - G2 Diff Covers - Pro Comp 8186 - Milestar Patagonia 35's - Teraflex BRK
- TORQ Locker - 1310 Driveshaft - PowerTrax Grip Pro - Full Core 4x4 Control Arms and Track Bars
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Old 04-18-2019, 08:30 AM   #13
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@thegreatwhitenorth , as pressurized said toe should stay put. Unless you bend your tie rod toe should stay set at what it is set at. It is a rod connecting the two front wheels. The length of that rod determines toe. That rod should not be changing length. It has adjusters, but as long as the adjusters are properly tightened they should not be changing adjustment. So if the adjusters are tight, and you have not bent your tie rod, your toe should not change. Adding a lift doesn't affect toe. Adding an extra spacer up front doesn't affect toe. Toe is determined by the length of the tie rod. And if the tie rod is not changing length toe should not change.
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Old 04-18-2019, 08:39 AM   #14
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I changed all four of my rear control arms out for rock krawler parts when I installed my 2.5" lift. That pushed the rear axle back around an inch, and I moved the swaybar mounts back an inch too.
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Old 04-18-2019, 10:22 AM   #15
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Also to add in to the discussion of control arms. Two doors are a little more sensitive than four doors to the driveline caster/pinion angles. I did all adjustable RK X Factor at 2.5 inches.

I recently replaced my tie rod and went heim ends rather than TREs. It totally took any and all slop out of steering and completely tightened up the front end. RK Offroad Pro - aluminum 1.75. Just be cautious - I temporarily had to add wheel spacers because even with 4.25 backspace on a 17 inch wheel it is just too close for comfort to clear. You need a larger wheel and/or lower backspace. Excellent excuse to buy beadlocks at 3.5 soon so worked out lol!
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Old 04-18-2019, 12:25 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by Pressurized View Post
Unless you "hit" something, your toe should stay put. I haven't changed mine in 3 years...
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Originally Posted by GuzziMoto View Post
@thegreatwhitenorth , as pressurized said toe should stay put. Unless you bend your tie rod toe should stay set at what it is set at. It is a rod connecting the two front wheels. The length of that rod determines toe. That rod should not be changing length. It has adjusters, but as long as the adjusters are properly tightened they should not be changing adjustment. So if the adjusters are tight, and you have not bent your tie rod, your toe should not change. Adding a lift doesn't affect toe. Adding an extra spacer up front doesn't affect toe. Toe is determined by the length of the tie rod. And if the tie rod is not changing length toe should not change.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wjfawb0 View Post
I changed all four of my rear control arms out for rock krawler parts when I installed my 2.5" lift. That pushed the rear axle back around an inch, and I moved the swaybar mounts back an inch too.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mommymallcrawler View Post
Also to add in to the discussion of control arms. Two doors are a little more sensitive than four doors to the driveline caster/pinion angles. I did all adjustable RK X Factor at 2.5 inches.

I recently replaced my tie rod and went heim ends rather than TREs. It totally took any and all slop out of steering and completely tightened up the front end. RK Offroad Pro - aluminum 1.75. Just be cautious - I temporarily had to add wheel spacers because even with 4.25 backspace on a 17 inch wheel it is just too close for comfort to clear. You need a larger wheel and/or lower backspace. Excellent excuse to buy beadlocks at 3.5 soon so worked out lol!
Cheers mate.

That makes sense, I ll have to look close at tie rod for damage, to be sure.
Otherwise itís square now.

Prob stay away from back arms right now.

Two yrs ago both side were toed our, left side worse then the other. This time it pulled left a lot and I guess only left tire was toed out.

I going to look for dents on that tie rod.

Maybe that means itís a requiredment to be forced to get yeti steering.
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Old 04-18-2019, 12:53 PM   #17
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@thegreatwhitenorth , toe is generally spread evenly between left and right. But when they measure it the steering wheel may be turned slightly to the left or right. That can make it seem like one side is toed in or out more than the other. But that is an illusion. If they had simply better centered the steering when they measured it would not have been so. If the left shows 0.2" of toe in and the right shows 0.3" of toe in you actually have 0.5" of toe in or 0.25" per side.
This is just to try and help you understand what is going on. When I see a print out of an alignment and the left and right toe are seriously different I always feel like the tech did a crappy job. To me that is a sign of not putting in the effort to do a good job. Others may disagree, but that is me.
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Old 04-19-2019, 11:22 AM   #18
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@thegreatwhitenorth , toe is generally spread evenly between left and right. But when they measure it the steering wheel may be turned slightly to the left or right. That can make it seem like one side is toed in or out more than the other. But that is an illusion. If they had simply better centered the steering when they measured it would not have been so. If the left shows 0.2" of toe in and the right shows 0.3" of toe in you actually have 0.5" of toe in or 0.25" per side.
This is just to try and help you understand what is going on. When I see a print out of an alignment and the left and right toe are seriously different I always feel like the tech did a crappy job. To me that is a sign of not putting in the effort to do a good job. Others may disagree, but that is me.
Info is good to know so I understand.

They didnít give me a printout and I didnít ask. I can ask them if they have it. They send me a text about something the guy said I could do to get it better, the woman didnít know exactly what mech. Guy was talking about. I text them back and see what that is and ask about print out.

Let you know, post it here.
I trust the guys on here more then anyone else at garages or dealership, even though they are only trying to help the common person.

Blokes here are not the common people.
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Old 04-22-2019, 04:46 PM   #19
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I hit LOTS of rocks

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Unless you "hit" something, your toe should stay put. I haven't changed mine in 3 years...

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