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Old 10-20-2016, 09:51 PM
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Why Does MC include UPPER arms first?

I'm researching JKU lifts in the 2.5 - 3 - 3.5" range for around a grand. The cheapest lifts, of course, do not include control arms. When kits begin to include control arms, it's almost always front LCAs first, followed by rear UCAs or LCAs, etc.

HOWEVER...I see that Metalcloak's lift in that price range (True Dual Rate 3.5", at $1,199) includes front UPPER control arms.

Does anyone know why? And is that a better kit to start with if I don't want to add other components for another year or so? I want a kit in that price range that is complete enough to drive right & wheel lightly. Seems to me like adjusting caster with only the uppers would pull the axle rearward, if the objective is to "tilt the axle back." Pulling it rearward would only exaggerate the rearward movement of the axle already caused by lowering of the axle (raising of the frame). I don't remember ever seeing any comments related to this.

Kits I'm also considering are RK 3.5 flex & Teraflex 3" basic kit. I think I've ruled out the AEV kits based on comments on this forum.

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Old 10-21-2016, 12:40 PM
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Anyone?

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Old 10-21-2016, 01:19 PM   #3
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Ok I'll try. Just based on what I've read from others. Adjusting the control arms doesn't really move the axle forward or backwards, rather it rotates the axle one way or the other. For some reason, and I'm not sure why, 'they' say adjusting caster from the upper arm is better than adjusting from the lower arm. Might have something to do with how it affects pinion angle?
Others will prefer to go with LCAs first for two reasons: they are easier to install, and they replace the factory arm with a stronger one that often offers more clearance.

Hopefully someone can confirm/elaborate. At a minimum, if I'm super wrong, the right answers aren't far away, because, you know...interwebs!
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Old 10-21-2016, 01:33 PM   #4
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Agree with RuDawg, perhaps it is cheaper to manufacture the upper one. Either one will adjust caster but it is easier to replace the bottom and you can improve on the oem.
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Old 10-21-2016, 01:52 PM   #5
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@Jedi9 makes a good point. They are cheaper. They are usually thinner steal since they are tucked up out of the way, and only the axle side is a flex joint, while the frame side is a u-bracket type mount.
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Old 10-21-2016, 03:36 PM   #6
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I don't think it's a cheaping-out thing for Metalcloak. I don't have the answer, but I'm sure they'll explain everything you want to know if you call them.

My guess is that it's to take advantage of their highly-flexible bushing type in the upper arms first, where there is great torsion over a shorter distance exacerbated by the greater articulation of their lifts over other manufacturers. In other words, they get rid of the weakest link in the system, first.
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Old 10-21-2016, 06:44 PM   #8
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I actually just saw an old post from MC's "jeepineer" today that described it as a trade off. The uppers add strength to a weaker factory control arm and make for a cheaper sell price. The lowers obviously being better for moving the axle back forward. He also said to call and they'd sub them out for lowers if you wanted at a higher price. That's what I'd do.
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Old 10-21-2016, 07:20 PM   #9
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Here it was:

#79
Jeepineer

Front upper replacements provide substantial strength improvement over stock.

Front lowers provide better more practical caster adjustment.

One could argue either way on this one.

#80
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I am sure Will or Matson will substitute lowers if you would like. They will probably charge you the difference in price between to two sets of arms. Sorry I did not understand the question the first time.

Please copy this post when you talk to Will or Matson.
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Old 10-21-2016, 11:16 PM
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Thanks for the input, folks! So, in that general category, would you guys recommend:

Metalcloak True Dual Rate 3.5" ($1199 includes front uppers; $1399 w/Rocksport shox added)
Metalcloak Overland Sport 3.5" ($1359 includes geo reloc brackets a-la AEV and Rocksport shox)
Rock Krawler 3.5" Flex ($1180 includes front lowers, no shox)
Teraflex 3" ($1077 includes 9550 or shox, no control arms incl)
JKS Jspec 3.5" ($1180 includes fox 2.0 shox, no control arms)
AEV 2.5" Dualsport XT ($1000 incl Bilsteins)

I know...it's 95% subjective, but it's impossible to test them all prior to purchase, and it's my first Jeep. 3 Jeeps from now, I'll have firsthand opinions! For now, I'll rely partially on yours.
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Old 10-22-2016, 10:24 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by kbphx View Post
Thanks for the input, folks! So, in that general category, would you guys recommend:

Metalcloak True Dual Rate 3.5" ($1199 includes front uppers; $1399 w/Rocksport shox added)
Metalcloak Overland Sport 3.5" ($1359 includes geo reloc brackets a-la AEV and Rocksport shox)
Rock Krawler 3.5" Flex ($1180 includes front lowers, no shox)
Teraflex 3" ($1077 includes 9550 or shox, no control arms incl)
JKS Jspec 3.5" ($1180 includes fox 2.0 shox, no control arms)
AEV 2.5" Dualsport XT ($1000 incl Bilsteins)

I know...it's 95% subjective, but it's impossible to test them all prior to purchase, and it's my first Jeep. 3 Jeeps from now, I'll have firsthand opinions! For now, I'll rely partially on yours.
I was looking at similar kits and it came down to what YOU will be doing in that Jeep. For me, I went with the AEV 2.5" based on my needs and talking to at least 5 vendors and settled on with with help from Rubitrux, as supporting vendor here.

Mine is my DD and will see off road duty a few times a year. No rock crawling here in SFLA, just trails. I wanted better thank stock road handling and trail. The AEV will give me both.

But figure out what YOU need out of this kit, not what everyone will tell you need. Whats your on and off road plans? Between all the great posters here and vendors, they will help once they know more about you and your ride plans.
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Old 10-22-2016, 02:44 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by kbphx View Post
Thanks for the input, folks! So, in that general category, would you guys recommend:

Metalcloak True Dual Rate 3.5" ($1199 includes front uppers; $1399 w/Rocksport shox added)
Metalcloak Overland Sport 3.5" ($1359 includes geo reloc brackets a-la AEV and Rocksport shox)
Rock Krawler 3.5" Flex ($1180 includes front lowers, no shox)
Teraflex 3" ($1077 includes 9550 or shox, no control arms incl)
JKS Jspec 3.5" ($1180 includes fox 2.0 shox, no control arms)
AEV 2.5" Dualsport XT ($1000 incl Bilsteins)

I know...it's 95% subjective, but it's impossible to test them all prior to purchase, and it's my first Jeep. 3 Jeeps from now, I'll have firsthand opinions! For now, I'll rely partially on yours.
I will say right now do yourself a favor and purchase the Metal Cloak Gold Standard. You get a $1800 dollar lift kit for the price of a one ounce of gold coin. You can get the gold coin if you don't already have one for around $1300. If you ordered today you get free shipping. This deal is really to good to pass up IMO.
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Old 10-22-2016, 04:26 PM   #13
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I will say right now do yourself a favor and purchase the Metal Cloak Gold Standard. You get a $1800 dollar lift kit for the price of a one ounce of gold coin. You can get the gold coin if you don't already have one for around $1300. If you ordered today you get free shipping. This deal is really to good to pass up IMO.
I agree, great deal if you do this. Best by far.
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Old 10-22-2016, 09:16 PM   #14
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Agreed, I've been doing research for weeks and I'm pulling the trigger on the "Gold Standard" package this week. The spot on gold is down to about $1260 right now.
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Old 10-24-2016, 03:07 PM
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Heyyyyy....I was unaware of that deal, but I don't see how anyone can beat it. Next stop...how and where to get a gold bar/coin....
Thanks for the info, guys!!!
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Old 10-24-2016, 03:14 PM   #16
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Heyyyyy....I was unaware of that deal, but I don't see how anyone can beat it. Next stop...how and where to get a gold bar/coin....
Thanks for the info, guys!!!
Give MC a call. My guess is they can help.
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Old 10-25-2016, 12:23 AM   #17
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Well,
I too am interested in M/C lift. But, they advertise a "dual rate" spring. Well, for most of my life, in the automotive business and or experience, a dual rate spring is one that has tighter wound (closer together coils) and, wider ones (farther apart coils). Now, the tighter ones usually handle a different load than the wider apart ones do. But, if you look at Metalcloaks website and, find the animated view of their "dual rate spring", you'll see that yes, there is a difference in the coils on that spring.

But, the closer ones, are ALL THE WAY TOGETHER, for daily driving on the road!! There is no spring action in that section of the spring. That leaves the rest of the spring, (to me, it's like having a single rate spring) to do all the work, in soft and hard bumps etc. Their claim of importance of their dual rate is, as your axle droops, the tighter coils open up for added droop.

Well, that may be well and good for droop but, as I've always been lead to believe, a true dual rate is for different handling of different loads and bumps etc. So, what say you that know those springs etc.? If I'm wrong, please set me straight.
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Old 10-25-2016, 03:52 AM   #18
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Well,
I too am interested in M/C lift. But, they advertise a "dual rate" spring. Well, for most of my life, in the automotive business and or experience, a dual rate spring is one that has tighter wound (closer together coils) and, wider ones (farther apart coils). Now, the tighter ones usually handle a different load than the wider apart ones do. But, if you look at Metalcloaks website and, find the animated view of their "dual rate spring", you'll see that yes, there is a difference in the coils on that spring.

But, the closer ones, are ALL THE WAY TOGETHER, for daily driving on the road!! There is no spring action in that section of the spring. That leaves the rest of the spring, (to me, it's like having a single rate spring) to do all the work, in soft and hard bumps etc. Their claim of importance of their dual rate is, as your axle droops, the tighter coils open up for added droop.

Well, that may be well and good for droop but, as I've always been lead to believe, a true dual rate is for different handling of different loads and bumps etc. So, what say you that know those springs etc.? If I'm wrong, please set me straight.
Scott
Like you when I thought of a dual rate spring I thought of what we had in our trucks. The more we loaded down the truck the stiffer the suspension becomes. The down side to this is the ride height is changing. Not really an issue in the a truck but not something we want happening in a Jeep.

One thing you need to remember is that any of the quality lift manufactures out there advertise their lift height based on a fully loaded Jeep. That means bumpers, winches, armor and cargo. If you install one of these kits on a stock Jeep you will get much more lift than advertised.

Here is a link to a blog explaining why M/C went the way they did.

On the Rocks... a Blog: Understanding Suspension Spring Dynamics & Why We Chose Dual Rate
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Old 10-25-2016, 04:43 AM   #19
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Just went through all the same stuff, trying to figure out what lift to get. I went with metal cloak because of all the great reviews with on-road manners after installing the lift. Most claim it's better than stock. I also went with the gold standard pretty painless process. I also added on the rear control arms and brake lines to make it the rocksport game changer. My lift will be delivered today.
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Old 10-25-2016, 05:29 AM   #20
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MC's dual rate coil acts like a linear rate on the road. The upper rate is NOT used and the only purpose is for staying in the buckets at full articulation.
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Old 10-25-2016, 11:40 AM   #21
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MC's dual rate coil acts like a linear rate on the road. The upper rate is NOT used and the only purpose is for staying in the buckets at full articulation.
So, with your experience, and the way most "dual rate" springs are shown to work, would you say that M/C's dual rate was/is NOT a dual rate spring? I mean, if it's a linear rate spring for all intent and purpose, then why not simply say in a brochure that, "Our springs are designed to stay in place, for full droop"? The reason I am asking and commenting is, as stated in this and other threads, we're dangerously close to purchasing a lift. When I saw "Dual rate" on their ads, I was enthused 'cause I was thinking it would a soft ride for most situations and, when things got extra tough or, you added a bit more load, then a secondary spring rate would kick in. But, that's not the case.
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Old 10-25-2016, 12:41 PM   #22
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So, with your experience, and the way most "dual rate" springs are shown to work, would you say that M/C's dual rate was/is NOT a dual rate spring? I mean, if it's a linear rate spring for all intent and purpose, then why not simply say in a brochure that, "Our springs are designed to stay in place, for full droop"? The reason I am asking and commenting is, as stated in this and other threads, we're dangerously close to purchasing a lift. When I saw "Dual rate" on their ads, I was enthused 'cause I was thinking it would a soft ride for most situations and, when things got extra tough or, you added a bit more load, then a secondary spring rate would kick in. But, that's not the case.

Scott


No need to worry, they work excellent on and off road.
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Old 10-25-2016, 12:56 PM   #23
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So, with your experience, and the way most "dual rate" springs are shown to work, would you say that M/C's dual rate was/is NOT a dual rate spring? I mean, if it's a linear rate spring for all intent and purpose, then why not simply say in a brochure that, "Our springs are designed to stay in place, for full droop"? The reason I am asking and commenting is, as stated in this and other threads, we're dangerously close to purchasing a lift. When I saw "Dual rate" on their ads, I was enthused 'cause I was thinking it would a soft ride for most situations and, when things got extra tough or, you added a bit more load, then a secondary spring rate would kick in. But, that's not the case. Scott
I see where you are going and i agree. Take a dual rate coil-over for example where both rates are used. As far as ride is concerned MC's coil is linear.

Take a look at RK's triple rate. There is a softer road rate and a stiffer rate higher in the coils cycle. The third rate is the dead zone like MC's top winding. On road, RK's will act like a dual rate like you are looking for.
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Old 10-25-2016, 12:57 PM   #24
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So, with your experience, and the way most "dual rate" springs are shown to work, would you say that M/C's dual rate was/is NOT a dual rate spring? I mean, if it's a linear rate spring for all intent and purpose, then why not simply say in a brochure that, "Our springs are designed to stay in place, for full droop"? The reason I am asking and commenting is, as stated in this and other threads, we're dangerously close to purchasing a lift. When I saw "Dual rate" on their ads, I was enthused 'cause I was thinking it would a soft ride for most situations and, when things got extra tough or, you added a bit more load, then a secondary spring rate would kick in. But, that's not the case.
Scott
The MC springs have a little bit firmer "road rate" than some others but not much. But that's actually nice around the corners, better than stock obviously. Bumps may be a little more noticeable than stock but that will also depend on your tire pressure and control arm joints. Who knows why they market them like they do.

If you're only looking for the softest ride, stay stock or put MC's 2.5" jk coils on a jku. They offer a package like that for a 1.5" lift now.
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Old 10-25-2016, 06:01 PM   #25
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The MC springs have a little bit firmer "road rate" than some others but not much. But that's actually nice around the corners, better than stock obviously.
I love the MC spring cornering. But the benefit is not just around corners...

With part of the height "not in play" on the road, a big appeal of the MC springs to me was eliminating the brake dive and rocking. That full-stop rocking is now virtually gone, worlds better than the stock Rubicon springs.

I was very afraid of going with single-rate lift springs, only to end up feeling like I was on the playground.
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Old 10-25-2016, 10:48 PM   #26
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Get rid of the 35 inch tires. Get 33s and problems solved.You are going down the road of lift more and pay more.With any more lift than you have now you will pay more than a set of new tires and your ride may suffer or may not.If you really like your ride now get 33s and be done.Other wise youll end up with a full on lift with thousands of dollars spent.I know you have bin there done that.Respectfully Tom
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Old 10-26-2016, 10:53 AM   #27
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@Jedi9 makes a good point. They are cheaper. They are usually thinner steal since they are tucked up out of the way, and only the axle side is a flex joint, while the frame side is a u-bracket type mount.
Pretty sure my MC arms were same thickness top and bottom.

Gold standard kit looks awesome btw.
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Old 10-26-2016, 11:22 AM   #28
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Pretty sure my MC arms were same thickness top and bottom.

Gold standard kit looks awesome btw.
No, the front upper control arms a 1 1/4 compared to 1 1/2 for all the other control arms. All are 3/16 DOM.

What makes the cost less is they are cheaper to manufacture. There are no bends in the front uppers, slight smaller diameter material and they only have a Duroflex joint on one end. Of course for another $100 and a little welding time you can have Duroflex joints on both ends.
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Old 10-27-2016, 12:32 AM   #29
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Location: Lake Havasu City AZ
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Originally Posted by Overthinker View Post
I love the MC spring cornering. But the benefit is not just around corners...

With part of the height "not in play" on the road, a big appeal of the MC springs to me was eliminating the brake dive and rocking. That full-stop rocking is now virtually gone, worlds better than the stock Rubicon springs.

I was very afraid of going with single-rate lift springs, only to end up feeling like I was on the playground.
Well
Apparently my Rubi stock springs are different than yours. We don't get any wallowing around corners or freeway on ramps etc. It's a nice moderate but not firm ride. I really don't get any "brake dive" either. Of course the front end dips a bit when braking but, certainly not excessively. And, we don't road race this thing anyways so, stiffening up the cornering ability is not in the cards.

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Originally Posted by pismo61 View Post
Get rid of the 35 inch tires. Get 33s and problems solved.You are going down the road of lift more and pay more.With any more lift than you have now you will pay more than a set of new tires and your ride may suffer or may not.If you really like your ride now get 33s and be done.Other wise youll end up with a full on lift with thousands of dollars spent.I know you have bin there done that.Respectfully Tom
Hey Tommy,
I sent you a reply PM awhile ago but, got no answer. How's things going? Retirement treating you well? We sure love it here in Havasu. Man it was sure nice to get out of CA. Anyways, about getting rid of those 35s, I might if, I had someone here in this small town that was interested in them for close to what I paid for them. But, to simply throw away most likely more than half their value, just so I could drop down to 33s, just seems like the advantages might not out weigh the pitfalls.

I did install some bump stop additions the other day, HOCKY PUCKS, and so far, based on some attempts to make them (the fenders) hit the tires on purpose and, no rubbing, yet! One never knows though. Maybe someone will offer me something close for these brand new 315s and I'll drop down. Thanks for responding.
Scott
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Old 10-27-2016, 08:04 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by FIRE UP View Post
Well
Apparently my Rubi stock springs are different than yours. We don't get any wallowing around corners or freeway on ramps etc. It's a nice moderate but not firm ride. I really don't get any "brake dive" either. Of course the front end dips a bit when braking but, certainly not excessively. And, we don't road race this thing anyways so, stiffening up the cornering ability is not in the cards.



Hey Tommy,
I sent you a reply PM awhile ago but, got no answer. How's things going? Retirement treating you well? We sure love it here in Havasu. Man it was sure nice to get out of CA. Anyways, about getting rid of those 35s, I might if, I had someone here in this small town that was interested in them for close to what I paid for them. But, to simply throw away most likely more than half their value, just so I could drop down to 33s, just seems like the advantages might not out weigh the pitfalls.

I did install some bump stop additions the other day, HOCKY PUCKS, and so far, based on some attempts to make them (the fenders) hit the tires on purpose and, no rubbing, yet! One never knows though. Maybe someone will offer me something close for these brand new 315s and I'll drop down. Thanks for responding.
Scott
PMed ya

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