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Old 11-14-2015, 01:48 PM
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2002 Sport - no signals or emergency flashers

Okay. I've tried to figure this out on my own but I need help.
I have no turn signals or emergency flashers.

2002 TJ Sport -
I've changed the following:
MF switch
Flasher relay
All fuses behind glovebox
Most fuses in engine compartment
Rewired the 20-way connector (solder and heatshrink)

I have all running lights, headlights, reverse lights, and brake lights

Now, here's where things get strange. If I press the flasher switch, my stop lamps go out (running lights stay on, brake lights do not illuminate). Same with selecting left or right turn. That corresponding brake light goes out

I'm not sure where to go from here without probing everything. I'd like to get my signals working again this weekend but I have a feeling it won't happen

Any advice is much appreciated

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Old 11-14-2015, 03:16 PM   #2
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The m-f switch is working as it should. Power to the brake lights goes through the m-f switch to the taillights. When you use the hazards or signals the m-f turns off the power to the both brake lights for the hazards & one side for signals for the side you are signaling. Then the flasher relay blinks the side or sides that the m-f turned off from the brake switch with power from the flasher relay. In effect the signals & hazards blink the brake lights as needed.

So when the m-f turns off the brake lights you are not getting power from the flasher relay to blink them either because the flasher relay is bad or not getting proper power to it. It is also possible you have the wrong relay. If you are sure both fuse 13 in the fuse block & fuse 7 in the PDC are good (meter checking is the proper way), you should pull the flasher relay & with the key on you should get 12v power to 2 of the relay socket’s terminals.

If not you have an open wire somewhere & if this happened when you rewired the 20 way connector to the m-f you may have a bad connection there or if you replaced that connector because it had melted then one of the wires to it may be bad further away from the connector.

At the connector the black/grey wire at pin 3 should have key on power & the black/white wire at pin 11 should have constant B+ power.

See what you have & report back if needed.

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Old 11-14-2015, 05:26 PM
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See what you have & report back if needed.
Thanks Rubi. If the rain goes away long enough I'll start probing for voltage. Everything worked great and then one day I had nothin.
Think my relay could have been shot and when I got a new one it was crap too (I'll ohm it and see what I find out)

It'd be nice to use turn signals again, seen as no one knows what hand signals are anymore...they think I'm waving at them
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Old 11-14-2015, 05:59 PM   #4
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Why did you replace the 20 way connector?
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Old 11-14-2015, 06:23 PM
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Why did you replace the 20 way connector?
My MF switch died right after I got the Jeep (almost two years ago). I pulled the connector and noticed that it was slightly melted. Installed a new switch and everything was hunkey dorey.

Now, after I pulled the MF switch again, I cracked off the melted end of the connector and decided it needed to be replaced



curious as to what melted it in the first place...
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Old 11-14-2015, 06:37 PM   #6
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Usually it is on 1 corner where 3 B+ power wires are for the headlights, fog lights & parking/tail lights. Not sure why but have seem a few melted & I think all were in that spot.

If everything worked after replacing that you can rule getting a wire in the wrong slot & probably out a bad solder joint. Checking for the 2 power supplies to the flasher relay socket will verify that. Then I would say bad or wrong flasher relay.

Also, if the column gets wet (drenched) it can kill the signals until things dry out & often will give you a buzzing sound too. Was the top off during a rain storm?
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Old 11-14-2015, 06:55 PM
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The one thing I've been concerend with was my interior. I've only gone offroading once with my doors abd hard top off and it was a mistake IMO.

Pins 18, 19, and 20 were melted, and 17 was kinda black

I think the rain has stopped so I'll check voltage at the relay
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Old 11-14-2015, 07:08 PM
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Old 11-14-2015, 07:09 PM
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Old 11-16-2015, 07:32 PM
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Looks like I've got 3 grounds and 1 power....somethin don't seem right here
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Old 11-16-2015, 07:46 PM   #11
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That’s OK, now go to the 20 way connector & unplug it. See the pin numbers on the plastic? Find pins 3 (black/grey wire) & 11 (black/white wire). Test them for 12v power. Pin 11 should always have power & pin 3 should have power when the key is on. Which one has no power?
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Old 11-17-2015, 03:33 PM
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That’s OK, now go to the 20 way connector & unplug it. See the pin numbers on the plastic? Find pins 3 (black/grey wire) & 11 (black/white wire). Test them for 12v power. Pin 11 should always have power & pin 3 should have power when the key is on. Which one has no power?
I'll check everything out when I get home. Thanks so much for your help so far!
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Old 11-29-2015, 02:18 PM
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That’s OK, now go to the 20 way connector & unplug it. See the pin numbers on the plastic? Find pins 3 (black/grey wire) & 11 (black/white wire). Test them for 12v power. Pin 11 should always have power & pin 3 should have power when the key is on. Which one has no power?
FINALLY got a chance to test everything...
Okay, so pin 3 has 12.3v when KOEO. Pin 11 has 6v when KOEO and when key is off it drops to 0.1v
You think I've got a short to power somewhere?
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Old 11-29-2015, 03:31 PM   #14
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Pin 3 has 12v (+/-) power with key on & nothing with key off, right? That is how it should be.

Now pin 11 should have the same 12v power as pin 3 but should stay on when the key is off. There is nothing that should have 6v so something is wrong there but it should not be changing when the key is off either. If wired correctly (you have rewired the new connector so check that) pin 11 should be getting its power from fuse 7 in the PDC. It gets power directly from the battery through a bus that powers everything in the PDC so there must be 12v there. You don’t have a short or a fuse would be blown & a short would not cause a voltage drop, not to mention it going to 0v with the key off so there is something else going on. Go to the point where you spliced the new-to-old wires for the 20 way connector. Make sure the wire going to pin 11 is the black/white from the harness side (old wire). Then check the voltage at the splice, both sides, to be sure the splice is good. Use a 12v test light rather than a meter. Be sure you have a good ground when testing. The light should be equally bright on both sides. If good there (key on & off) go to the connector & recheck also using the test light.

You definitely need 12v power at pin 11 to get the signals/hazards working.
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Old 11-29-2015, 07:15 PM
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Pin 3 has 12v (+/-) power with key on & nothing with key off, right? That is how it should be. Now pin 11 should have the same 12v power as pin 3 but should stay on when the key is off. There is nothing that should have 6v so something is wrong there but it should not be changing when the key is off either. If wired correctly (you have rewired the new connector so check that) pin 11 should be getting its power from fuse 7 in the PDC. It gets power directly from the battery through a bus that powers everything in the PDC so there must be 12v there. You don’t have a short or a fuse would be blown & a short would not cause a voltage drop, not to mention it going to 0v with the key off so there is something else going on. Go to the point where you spliced the new-to-old wires for the 20 way connector. Make sure the wire going to pin 11 is the black/white from the harness side (old wire). Then check the voltage at the splice, both sides, to be sure the splice is good. Use a 12v test light rather than a meter. Be sure you have a good ground when testing. The light should be equally bright on both sides. If good there (key on & off) go to the connector & recheck also using the test light. You definitely need 12v power at pin 11 to get the signals/hazards working.
Correct. 12v from pin 3 when the key is on.
I checked voltage at pin 11 on both sides of the splice. They're both 6v.
If I feed 12v into pin 11, everything works as it should, thus ruling out the switch and relay.
I'll try and get my hands on a wiring schematic and start tracing the wire for pin 11
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Old 11-29-2015, 07:41 PM   #16
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Here is a link to the FSM

See online read only FSMs here:
Jeep Information Center, Jeep Parts Catalog, Jeep Repair Manual & More
You may have to go to the bottom of the page & pick Jeep Resources & online manuals if it directs you to home page rather than the knowledge base.
Pick your model & year then on the drop down menu pick the chapter you need.

On page 2 of the turn signal section of the wiring chapter you will see that it is pretty much a straight shot from fuse 7 to the m-f switch with only 1 connector (C-108) in the big stack in the kick panel. Not too many places to lose half of the voltage. Check at the fuse including for a loose or corroded terminal in the fuse socket & meter check the fuse too.

At least you know what the problem is, now to find where.
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Old 11-29-2015, 11:57 PM
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Originally Posted by RUBI 4 MY MRS View Post
Here is a link to the FSM See online read only FSMs here: Jeep Information Center, Jeep Parts Catalog, Jeep Repair Manual & More You may have to go to the bottom of the page & pick Jeep Resources & online manuals if it directs you to home page rather than the knowledge base. Pick your model & year then on the drop down menu pick the chapter you need. On page 2 of the turn signal section of the wiring chapter you will see that it is pretty much a straight shot from fuse 7 to the m-f switch with only 1 connector (C-108) in the big stack in the kick panel. Not too many places to lose half of the voltage. Check at the fuse including for a loose or corroded terminal in the fuse socket & meter check the fuse too. At least you know what the problem is, now to find where.
So get this...I go to move the Jeep tonight and I have power to the relay. Emergency lights and turn signals function
I have no idea what happened but everything works now lol
Thanks for your help Rubi!!! You're awesome!!!!
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Old 11-29-2015, 11:58 PM
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Oh, and sadly enough I didn't even think to check our website! (Yes, I work for Morris lol)
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Old 11-30-2015, 01:32 AM   #19
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Don't quite understand that but good to hear it is working.

That site has helped a lot of jeepers & appreciate them having it.
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Old 12-11-2015, 01:00 PM   #20
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Odd how they just started working..........Gonna use the tips here to try and narrow my issue down
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Old 03-14-2016, 11:34 AM
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Hey Rubi, quick question. Would there be any reason why installing an EP27 LED flasher relay would cause this problem?
It's one of the generic ones from Advance Auto, but it's a 5-pin so it fit fine.

Just curious if the relay is built in such a way that when voltage is sent through it, the Jeep shuts off all power on pin 11

Some mid-morning thinking on my part
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Old 03-14-2016, 01:10 PM   #22
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No, pin 11 should have battery power all the time. Power comes from fuse 7 in the PDC. That wire comes directly from the fuse through 1 connector to the m-f connector. That connector is C-108. No way the flasher can kill power from the fuse. It may be bad & kill power out from the flasher to the m-f switch though. But if you are losing power at pin 11 the flasher is not the cause. Requesting power from the fuse (through pin 11) can cause a voltage drop if you have a bad connection or wire damage somewhere in the circuit so checking the circuit is needed, as posted above.

C-108 is the black connector about 4th from top in the big stack in the kick panel.

Recently I helped a guy with a similar problem (see link below) & there was a break in the wire right near one of the connectors but damage can be anywhere so tracing the wire can be tough. It is a process but look for the most likely places first.

If you are losing power to pin 11 start at the fuse. Check the fuse & connections to the terminals in the PDC, If good, lift the PDC & check the wire (black/white) at the fuse terminal for damage or corrosion especially right at the terminal crimp. If good the next place to check is that wire on both sides of C-108.

Of course you can simply replace that wire by running a new one (also done in the link below).

https://www.wranglerforum.com/f210/2000-jeep-wrangler-with-the-dreaded-no-bus-message-1626298.html#post24601385
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Old 03-14-2016, 01:36 PM   #23
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I haven't finished the diagnosing of my issue. But I had the same issues you are describing as far as light functionality goes. What I did find (try this if they start failing again) that with the jeep off, no key in ignition, my lights would work again if my transmission was in reverse.....odd...so with key on, whether engine is running or not, I would have the symptoms you described. I went to my tail lights and cut the wire for reverse lights. They've been working 100% for two months now. I have LED tails. My only assumption now is that a very small amount of voltage was being fed through the reverse wires, enough to cancel out my tails, (red LEDs would switch from red to white when in reverse no problem) but not enough to illuminate them. Perhaps I am wrong, but I at least know my months of headaches is related to the reverse wires. When I get more time to diagnose further I will.
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Old 03-17-2016, 11:38 AM   #24
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Rubi, for some reason installing that flasher relay blew fuse 7...installed new fuse and BINGO everything works. Either I'm crazy or my Jeep is lol
Thanks again for the help!
-Chris
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Old 03-17-2016, 04:17 PM   #25
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Probably the Jeep (crazy). As long as everything work, we'll take it!

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