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Old 07-18-2018, 01:28 PM
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5.9L swap and frame off rebuild

I've made a few different posts regarding the direction I want to go on my new project. It's a 98 TJ, 4.0, AX 15. The frame is rusted out, but I have a replacement.
I'm going with a 5.9l. I was going to rebuild the AX 15 but now I'm thinking why not just get the trany out of a Ram truck along with the T case. My Np 231 is broken. This way everything fits together without adapters.

Think I'd like to go with an auto trany.
I will also get a HP D30 and a ford 8.8
I'm going tomorrow to look for all these parts.
What do you think of the engine , trany, t case combo.

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Old 07-18-2018, 05:05 PM   #2
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How short is the rear driveshaft going to be?

That would be my biggest concern as I suspect both the tranny and the tc will be longer using up space and making for a too short rear driveshaft


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Old 07-18-2018, 05:33 PM   #3
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You have a 98 TJ, so ideally a 98-99 5.9L/46RE combo would work well with your gauges and can be integrated into the Jeep system easily (well, easy-ish). If you get it from a 1500, it should be the 231D. This is similar to the 231J, but clocked differently IIRC. The 2500's should have the 241, which is a good case and similar. Length should be fine with a 231, though you may need to redrill/reclock your t-case.
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Old 07-18-2018, 06:13 PM
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And if I go with a nv3500 and matching t case will this make a bit easier? I will look for a 231. I'm thinking of getting the driveshafts from a ram also that'll fit the t case and then change out the pinion yolk to match. Gotta do the rear anyway for re gear. Wasn't planning to change gears in the front, was gonna get one with 4.10s. But if I open both pumpkins I might go with 4.56s. That, 33s and manual will make a decent off roader. Hwy mpg will probably suck.
That's my biggest debate right now, manual or auto. Going tomorrow so gotta make a decision tonight.
Thanks for the help.
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Old 07-18-2018, 10:17 PM
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I've been agonizing over this for hours now and still can't come to a decision. Manual or auto???
I feel I can move the engine mounts forward as much as possible and retain a decent driveshaft length with an auto. And there's the option of a T case drop, if necessary. I'll be doing a rear axle swap and welding in new spring perches, so I can set the pinion angle to what is best.

I asked my wife for her opinion.....................Well you can imagine how that went.

So my question to you now is what would you prefer, if you were buying this Jeep, already built?
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Old 07-19-2018, 05:23 AM   #6
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A 4.0 manual as most reliable and practical with least custom parts and less concerns about what was done in swap

Would always be hesitant to buy swap vehicle done by someone else as lots of items not covered on FSM


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Old 07-19-2018, 09:32 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by Junkyard junkie View Post
And if I go with a nv3500 and matching t case will this make a bit easier? I will look for a 231. I'm thinking of getting the driveshafts from a ram also that'll fit the t case and then change out the pinion yolk to match. Gotta do the rear anyway for re gear. Wasn't planning to change gears in the front, was gonna get one with 4.10s. But if I open both pumpkins I might go with 4.56s. That, 33s and manual will make a decent off roader. Hwy mpg will probably suck.
The NV3500 and AX15 are close in size, as is the 46RE (not the pre-96 46RH models) at around ~27" long. The 231 should be the same length in the case, though the tailshaft will have some differences. Personally I'd swap in a SYE if you haven't and you can then run a standard 1310 CV joint front and rear.

I would suggest opening up the pumpkins no matter what. Even if you find a 4.10-geared LSD equipped F8.8, it is still worthwhile to swap out some bearings and replace the Trac-Lok clutches with a set of Ford Racing Carbon Clutches. That being said, with 33" tires, and the NV3550's 0.79:1 overdrive ratio, 4.56's would suit you well. With the 4.10's will give you a 65 MPH cruise speed of ~2100 RPM. This would be okay if you live in a very flat part of town. However, the 4.56's will bump that up to just over ~2350 RPM, which is around the sweet spot for most V8's of this era.

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That's my biggest debate right now, manual or auto. Going tomorrow so gotta make a decision tonight.
Hah - sounds like we are in the same boat! I'm also at the point where I need to decide which route to go...

For me, I like the control and interaction of a manual transmission. However, I also like to play in the rocks which is where an auto shines if you can keep it cool enough (or build in enough crawl ratio). I'm focusing on rebuilding the engine first and am weighing my options so I still have some time before I need to make a go/no-go decision.

At this point though I am leaning towards the AX-15, particularly since we can still purchase brand-new AX's from Novak for around $1600 that are the modern "Medium Duty" versions that surpass the NV3500/3550 ratings. The AX-15 is notorious for smooth shifting (assuming it gets the correct fluid!) and feels more car-like than any other medium duty transmission. The NV3500 generally feels like you're shifting a dinner spoon through a bowl full of marbles.
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Old 07-19-2018, 02:38 PM   #8
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I have the 5.9 with the AX-15 on my Grand Cherokee. It's incredibly fun. Dropping into gear and leaving everybody behind you in the dust is a very rewarding experience. I personally recommend it, but at the end of the day it's your jeep, not ours.
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Old 07-19-2018, 03:32 PM
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My trip to the junk yard resulted in finding only the rear axle. Nothing else. So looks like I have some time to think about it. I won't get another day for myself in over a month.
But the good news is it's an 8.8 from a '96, v8, 4x4 explorer. Has 31 splines and a factory LS, disk brakes, 59.5" WMS to WMS. I wonder if I can reuse the LS with 4.10s?.
Thanks.

Edit: Factory Trac lok will work for any 8.8 gear.
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Old 07-19-2018, 03:36 PM   #10
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At this point though I am leaning towards the AX-15, particularly since we can still purchase brand-new AX's from Novak for around $1600 that are the modern "Medium Duty" versions that surpass the NV3500/3550 ratings. The AX-15 is notorious for smooth shifting (assuming it gets the correct fluid!) and feels more car-like than any other medium duty transmission. The NV3500 generally feels like you're shifting a dinner spoon through a bowl full of marbles.
I've heard about this before... so the new AX-15's shift better and they're stronger??? Sign me up :lol: seriously, does anybody know if the case and bolt patterns of the new ones is a 1:1 match to the original? I'd love to replace the aging AX-15 in my ZJ with something that shifts nicer...
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Old 07-19-2018, 03:58 PM
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I have the 5.9 with the AX-15 on my Grand Cherokee. It's incredibly fun. Dropping into gear and leaving everybody behind you in the dust is a very rewarding experience. I personally recommend it, but at the end of the day it's your jeep, not ours.
Completely agree with that. So for that type of driving, I built a '00 convertible, Mustang GT, 5 speed. I rebuilt the engine and trany in it and put in a Procharger. It is my fast driving fix.

I had an '93 XJ with a 4.0 and AX15. I bought it new (back in the day). Had a 3" lift, 32" tires, 4.10s, rear locker. It also had the HP D30 and Chrysler 8.25. All my wheeling was done in Moab at that time. I lived there for a while. Anyway, I found that rock crawling with a manual was a bit more challenging then with an auto. I managed by putting in a hand throttle. Then I could work the gas, brake and clutch at the same time for the really slow stuff. Of course, that could also have been remedied by a 4:1 t case, but didn't have the money for that. With and auto, you just power brake and that's a lot easier.

Moab is still only 5 hours from where I live, so a long weekend trip isn't out of the question.

So with all that said, I'm still not sure on what I want, manual, or auto. Both have their pros and cons. But I think I might be talking myself into an auto.
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Old 07-19-2018, 04:11 PM   #12
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Completely agree with that. So for that type of driving, I built a '00 convertible, Mustang GT, 5 speed. I rebuilt the engine and trany in it and put in a Procharger. It is my fast driving fix.

I had an '93 XJ with a 4.0 and AX15. I bought it new (back in the day). Had a 3" lift, 32" tires, 4.10s, rear locker. It also had the HP D30 and Chrysler 8.25. All my wheeling was done in Moab at that time. I lived there for a while. Anyway, I found that rock crawling with a manual was a bit more challenging then with an auto. I managed by putting in a hand throttle. Then I could work the gas, brake and clutch at the same time for the really slow stuff. Of course, that could also have been remedied by a 4:1 t case, but didn't have the money for that.

Moab is still only 5 hours from where I live, so a long weekend trip isn't out of the question.

So with all that said, I'm still not sure on what I want, manual, or auto. Both have their pros and cons. But I think I might be talking myself into an auto.
I mean, if you're dealing with stuff that slow, there's probably ways you can stick the throttle at 20% or so, enough that you can forget about the throttle and just alternate clutch and brake. There's ways to do it, but again, if that's what you prefer, there's no shame in it, just get an auto
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Old 07-19-2018, 04:27 PM
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I mean, if you're dealing with stuff that slow, there's probably ways you can stick the throttle at 20% or so, enough that you can forget about the throttle and just alternate clutch and brake. There's ways to do it, but again, if that's what you prefer, there's no shame in it, just get an auto
You have to work the gas with your hand and clutch and brake with your feet. Can not just leave the throttle at any one position, doesn't work like that.
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Old 07-19-2018, 05:55 PM   #14
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My trip to the junk yard resulted in finding only the rear axle. Nothing else. So looks like I have some time to think about it. I won't get another day for myself in over a month.
But the good news is it's an 8.8 from a '96, v8, 4x4 explorer. Has 31 splines and a factory LS, disk brakes, 59.5" WMS to WMS. I wonder if I can reuse the LS with 4.10s?.
Thanks.


If you donít mind me asking, what did they charge you for the axle? I plan on getting one myself and want to have a baseline for what to expect on price


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Old 07-19-2018, 06:14 PM
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I paid $125 and pulled it myself. Took about an hour of wrenching while laying on dirt. They were charging an extra $75 to pull it for me.
The owner of the yard let me borrow a cordless, heavy duty impact wrench. That made all the difference! Would have been a real PITA without that. I think that'll be on my wish list for the future.
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Old 07-19-2018, 06:29 PM
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The NV3500 and AX15 are close in size, as is the 46RE (not the pre-96 46RH models) at around ~27" long. The 231 should be the same length in the case, though the tailshaft will have some differences. Personally I'd swap in a SYE if you haven't and you can then run a standard 1310 CV joint front and rear.

I would suggest opening up the pumpkins no matter what. Even if you find a 4.10-geared LSD equipped F8.8, it is still worthwhile to swap out some bearings and replace the Trac-Lok clutches with a set of Ford Racing Carbon Clutches. That being said, with 33" tires, and the NV3550's 0.79:1 overdrive ratio, 4.56's would suit you well. With the 4.10's will give you a 65 MPH cruise speed of ~2100 RPM. This would be okay if you live in a very flat part of town. However, the 4.56's will bump that up to just over ~2350 RPM, which is around the sweet spot for most V8's of this era.



Hah - sounds like we are in the same boat! I'm also at the point where I need to decide which route to go...

For me, I like the control and interaction of a manual transmission. However, I also like to play in the rocks which is where an auto shines if you can keep it cool enough (or build in enough crawl ratio). I'm focusing on rebuilding the engine first and am weighing my options so I still have some time before I need to make a go/no-go decision.

At this point though I am leaning towards the AX-15, particularly since we can still purchase brand-new AX's from Novak for around $1600 that are the modern "Medium Duty" versions that surpass the NV3500/3550 ratings. The AX-15 is notorious for smooth shifting (assuming it gets the correct fluid!) and feels more car-like than any other medium duty transmission. The NV3500 generally feels like you're shifting a dinner spoon through a bowl full of marbles.
I live in norther NM, at about 7000' elevation, lots of mountains here. 4.56's are very tempting. I'm just being lazy and not wanting to swap the front also. I can get the HP D30 out of a 4 banger XJ, that'll have the 4.10's already. But that might change and I'll go with the front gear swap also. And then there's the 4.88 option. It never ends, does it!
Also, I loved my AX15, with the 4.0. I would highly recommend the centerforce clutch. It made it feel like a whole new vehicle. I swapped that in at 100k miles. My old, factory one still had life left in it.
Thanks for the very informative reply.
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Old 07-19-2018, 07:04 PM   #17
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I live in mountains in central NM wife has rubi 4:10 5 SPd 32.5 metric

I have sport 5 SPd 4.56 on 33 in summer and I like the 4.10 in the rubi more

with the V8 unless you want bigger than 33 the 5 SPd and 4.10 would be fine


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Old 07-19-2018, 07:06 PM   #18
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You pull it in Albuquerque has lots of explorers

Still hoping they have another all you can carry pull a thon like in August of prior years




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Old 07-19-2018, 07:30 PM
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I live in mountains in central NM wife has rubi 4:10 5 SPd 32.5 metric

I have sport 5 SPd 4.56 on 33 in summer and I like the 4.10 in the rubi more

with the V8 unless you want bigger than 33 the 5 SPd and 4.10 would be fine


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Oh, cool. I'm a little north of Santa Fe. I went to the "boneyard" in Espenola. First time there. Owner is a great guy. I have a new favorite yard!
What do you like about the 4.10s vs the 4.56, or what do you think 4.88's would be like with 33's or 35's?
I think the deeper I get into this, the less I care about the MPG.
Where about's are you?
Thanks.
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Old 07-19-2018, 09:15 PM   #20
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Check inventory and prices online here

https://upullandpay.com/albuquerque/part-prices/

I live in the mountains east of Albuquerque



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Old 07-19-2018, 09:27 PM
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Check inventory and prices online here

https://upullandpay.com/albuquerque/part-prices/

I live in the mountains east of Albuquerque



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I'll check them out for the front D30.

Tijeras area? I bought my Jeep from there.


Thanks
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Old 07-20-2018, 08:22 PM
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I found a 2001 Ram with auto, 4x4, 85k miles. It's wrecked in the front, but has only 85k miles on it for $800.

The bad news is, it had the 5.2L engine.
Just can't pass it up for the price. 5.9L are hell to find. The idea of a complete, low mileage vehicle is too tempting to pass up.

If the deal goes through and I can get there in time to get it, I'm going to get it.
It'll be over a week till I can get some time, and it's about 300 miles away. So there are some logistics to figure out. We'll see.
I'm consoling myself with the thought that I'll just run the 5.2 for now and eventually go with the 5.9L.
There's nothing wrong with the 5.2. It's just not what I had in mind for years when I was thinking about this TJ build.
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Old 07-21-2018, 12:21 AM   #23
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Nothing wrong with the 5.2L - I actually was trying to find a 5.9L myself but ended up "finding" a 5.2L since it was the only reasonable option in my area. Turns out, it was a 5.9L and the owner had his wires crossed, so a good and unexpected score for me, but I wasn't disappointed when I though I found a 5.2L either. Power wise, there isn't a huge difference and with some basic add-ons, the 5.2 can be a good Jeep pusher!
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Old 08-01-2018, 08:27 PM
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I found a 2003 Durango RT, 5.9L with a part time 4WD for $750. The '03 Durango has the PCI BUS, vs the CCD for my '98 TJ. The Durango has a little less than 140K miles on it and I'll go and check it out in a couple of days. I'm assuming I can put in a CCD computer and engine harness and it'll work with my CCD, is this correct? Will I need a CCD harness also, or is just the computer enough?
My Jeep is a manual 4.0L. I'm planning on putting the entire drivetrain, engine, trany, T case, from the Durango into the Jeep. Any issues with this?
The 5.2L Ram was hit too hard in the front and I decided against it, since I couldn't drive it, or hear it run.

Thanks again.
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Old 08-02-2018, 06:12 AM   #25
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Yes the proper ccd computer for that engine the ccd harness and the sensors comparable with that harness

However ccd era straight six has only two oxygen sensors (except calif spec 2000) the V8 may have3 or 4 so some extra harness may still be needed


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Old 08-02-2018, 07:26 AM
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Yes the proper ccd computer for that engine the ccd harness and the sensors comparable with that harness

However ccd era straight six has only two oxygen sensors (except calif spec 2000) the V8 may have3 or 4 so some extra harness may still be needed


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So the extra O2 sensor wires will be on the donor already. Just one CCD donor harness and computer, plus my Jeep harness, I'm good?

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Old 08-02-2018, 04:49 PM   #27
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Plus little things like tps harness plug different pci vs ccd at least different 04 vs 98 TJ


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Old 08-02-2018, 05:35 PM
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Plus little things like tps harness plug different pci vs ccd at least different 04 vs 98 TJ


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Old 08-03-2018, 07:34 AM   #29
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I would definitely skip the AWD t-case from the Dakota - your NP231 would likely serve you better in a Jeep that sees off-road as well their general durability compared to the center-differential NP models.
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Old 08-03-2018, 08:00 AM
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My T case is broken, so I'd have to find a replacement anyway. I'm told the Durango is a part time 4WD. Don't know what case it has. I'll go late this afternoon to pick it up.

I'm thinking about getting a 231 anyway, just for the 4:1 gears availability, don't know if the reduction kit is available for other cases. I'll look into that later.

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