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Old 01-03-2017, 06:40 PM
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Throwout bearing

I have recently had big issues with a small part, my throwout bearing has gone bad 2x's with relative quickness, I have replaced the clutch, pressure plate, pilot bearing, and clutch fork. I even went as far as to replace my transmission (NV 3550) transfer case (NP 231) and the rear drive shaft. On a side note I was also having some starter problems ( it would slide or not engage with the flywheel) so I replaced it too and the problem still exists with the starter, could all my problems be related to a "warped" flywheel??? Could I please get some (positive) feedback?




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Old 01-03-2017, 06:50 PM   #2
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I have recently had big issues with a small part, my throwout bearing has gone bad 2x's with relative quickness, I have replaced the clutch, pressure plate, pilot bearing, and clutch fork. I even went as far as to replace my transmission (NV 3550) transfer case (NP 231) and the rear drive shaft. On a side note I was also having some starter problems ( it would slide or not engage with the flywheel) so I replaced it too and the problem still exists with the starter, could all my problems be related to a "warped" flywheel??? Could I please get some (positive) feedback?


What brand of clutch parts are you using, and who did the work? A flywheel would have to be in seriously bad shape for the starter not to engage it. Not very likely. Have there been any strange noises associated with this, and how does it shift?

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Old 01-03-2017, 06:59 PM
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LUK brand clutch 05-065 (the whole kit), when that throwout bearing (from the kit) went bad (less than 500 miles)I replaced with the National 614093 Clutch Release Bearing Assembly(lasted about 1000-1200 miles), the shifting is just fine except for the noise like a banshee being raped when I press the clutch pedal ("fully" disengaged), I do not ride the clutch pedal at stop lights and I have not really driven it hard. I did the work myself with a friend (who is a ASE certified pro mechanic).
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Old 01-03-2017, 07:27 PM   #4
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Starter problem is most likely damaged teeth on the flywheel. You can inspect the teeth by pulling the starter and rotating the engine slowly.

If I had 2 aftermarket TO bearings go, I would probably try a Mopar part. Also make sure it slides freely on the front of the transmission before putting it all back together.

It is possible that when you release the clutch, the TO bearing is not retracting all the way. There should be no contact between the TO bearing and the PP when the pedal is fully released? There is a spring that is supposed to make sure that happens so make sure the spring is installed properly when reassembling everything.

If all that is 100% correct, the only other possibility I can think of is that maybe your slave cylinder is not fully retracting. Or maybe new PP is not correct and is taller/thicker than original so when fully released, TO bearing is still in contact.

Bottom line: 2 possibilities:
1. Defective TO Bearings (unlikely that 2 would fail so quickly)
2. Something keeping TO bearing in constant contact with PP.
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Old 01-04-2017, 09:24 AM   #5
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Bottom line: 2 possibilities:
1. Defective TO Bearings (unlikely that 2 would fail so quickly)
2. Something keeping TO bearing in constant contact with PP.

Give me a break!! That little spring is just a retainer to hold the clutch fork in place. The slave cylinder does keep the TO bearing touching the pressure plate no doubt. The one thing you didn't replace is the flywheel which is probably warped which is both reasons your bearing keeps failing and starting problems.
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Old 01-04-2017, 10:34 AM   #6
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Bottom line: 2 possibilities:
1. Defective TO Bearings (unlikely that 2 would fail so quickly)
2. Something keeping TO bearing in constant contact with PP.

Give me a break!! That little spring is just a retainer to hold the clutch fork in place. The slave cylinder does keep the TO bearing touching the pressure plate no doubt. The one thing you didn't replace is the flywheel which is probably warped which is both reasons your bearing keeps failing and starting problems.
The throw out out bearing Does Not continuously spin at all times. I have done more Jeep clutch jobs than I care to remember. The pressure plate springs drive the throw out bearing to the rear and there is enough momentum from those to firmly seat the t.o. bearing to it's at rest position on the transmission bearing retainer. It doesn't take much of a spring to keep it there.

If you don't believe that, check the FSM which makes it clear that there is normally no contact of the throw out bearing with the pp, until pressure is applied to the clutch pedal. Novak engineering also has an informative write up.
https://www.novak-adapt.com/knowledge/clutches-etc/

Op, i suspect either an installation problem, or a part vs application issue. there was someone on here not too long ago with something similar, and they found that the pressure plate bolts were not seated. Since you will have to pull it again anyway, i suggest that you check everything as you tear it apart. Once the clutch is apart, you can throw a dial indicator on the flywheel (or just replace it).
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Old 01-04-2017, 01:52 PM   #7
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The throw out out bearing Does Not continuously spin at all times. I have done more Jeep clutch jobs than I care to remember. The pressure plate springs drive the throw out bearing to the rear and there is enough momentum from those to firmly seat the t.o. bearing to it's at rest position on the transmission bearing retainer. It doesn't take much of a spring to keep it there.

If you don't believe that, check the FSM which makes it clear that there is normally no contact of the throw out bearing with the pp, until pressure is applied to the clutch pedal. Novak engineering also has an informative write up.
https://www.novak-adapt.com/knowledge/clutches-etc/

Op, i suspect either an installation problem, or a part vs application issue. there was someone on here not too long ago with something similar, and they found that the pressure plate bolts were not seated. Since you will have to pull it again anyway, i suggest that you check everything as you tear it apart. Once the clutch is apart, you can throw a dial indicator on the flywheel (or just replace it).
We've been down this road before, you are WRONG!!! But I am not going to explain all this again. Novak is a completely different application. One day I'll cut an opening in my bell housing to prove it to you people, until then i'm done!!!!!
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Old 01-04-2017, 02:08 PM   #8
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Was the flywheel cut? Was the replacement flywheel OE or after market? If it was cut, or an aftermarket part I'd replace it with an OE flywheel if I had to pull it apart again. I'd also look into a Centerforce Series II clutch, if you have to do the job over and they make one for your application.
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Old 01-04-2017, 02:43 PM   #9
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We've been down this road before, you are WRONG!!! But I am not going to explain all this again. Novak is a completely different application. One day I'll cut an opening in my bell housing to prove it to you people, until then i'm done!!!!!
I suggest you let the engineers at chrysler know as well.
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Old 01-04-2017, 02:44 PM   #10
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From the FSM;

"Check flywheel runout whenever misalignment is
suspected. Flywheel runout should not exceed 0.08mm (0.003 in.). Measure runout at the outer edge of
the flywheel face with a dial indicator. Mount the
indicator on a stud installed in place of one of the flywheel
bolts.
Common causes of runout are:
• heat warpage
• improper machining
• incorrect bolt tightening
• improper seating on crankshaft flange shoulder
• foreign material on crankshaft flange"

"Clean the crankshaft flange before mounting the
flywheel. Dirt and grease on the flange surface may
cock the flywheel causing excessive runout. Use new
bolts when remounting a flywheel and secure the
bolts with Mopar Lock And Seal or equivalent.
Tighten flywheel bolts to specified torque only. Overtightening
can distort the flywheel hub causing
runout."

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Condition:
Contact surface of release bearing
damaged.

Possible Causes:
1. Clutch cover incorrect or release
fingers bent or distorted.
2. Release bearing defective or
damaged.
3. Release bearing misaligned.

Correction:
1. Replace clutch cover and release
bearing.
2. Replace the release bearing.
3. Check and correct runout of
clutch components. Check front
bearing sleeve for damage/
alignment. Repair as necessary.
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Old 01-13-2017, 10:29 PM
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Well I am going to change out the flywheel, input shaft bearing, clutch, clutch plate, throwout bearing, clutch fork, clutch form pivot point/spring, and I'll be using new bolts for the flywheel and clutch....I am doing this all tomorrow so hopefully all goes well!
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Old 01-14-2017, 10:06 AM   #12
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Well I am going to change out the flywheel, input shaft bearing, clutch, clutch plate, throwout bearing, clutch fork, clutch form pivot point/spring, and I'll be using new bolts for the flywheel and clutch....I am doing this all tomorrow so hopefully all goes well!
By input shaft bearing, i assume you mean pilot beaing (in the crankshaft) as opposed to the input bearing on the transmission.

Be sure not to use bolts to draw the transmission up to the engine when reinstalling the transmission. That can put an axial load on the input shaft an screw up bearings. Check your old pilot bearing before pulling it out and see what kind of condition it is in. Also check the condition of the transmission input bearing retainer (the part that the throw out bearing slides on) for chips or cracks).

My bet is that with two throw bearings going out that quickly, that something is causing them to spin continually, and no matter what 01tj-Bob says, they are not designed to do that.
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Old 01-14-2017, 10:31 AM   #13
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By input shaft bearing, i assume you mean pilot beaing (in the crankshaft) as opposed to the input bearing on the transmission.

Be sure not to use bolts to draw the transmission up to the engine when reinstalling the transmission. That can put an axial load on the input shaft an screw up bearings. Check your old pilot bearing before pulling it out and see what kind of condition it is in. Also check the condition of the transmission input bearing retainer (the part that the throw out bearing slides on) for chips or cracks).

My bet is that with two throw bearings going out that quickly, that something is causing them to spin continually, and no matter what 01tj-Bob says, they are not designed to do that.
If you had half a brain and a little logic you would understand that the slave cylinder keeps constant pressure on the clutch fork which keeps the bearing in contact with the pressure plate. You actually think a little retainer spring keeps the fork in place, what a joke. I've proved this in another thread but all you have to do is use your brain if so equipped!!!
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Old 01-14-2017, 03:18 PM   #14
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If you had half a brain and a little logic you would understand that the slave cylinder keeps constant pressure on the clutch fork which keeps the bearing in contact with the pressure plate. You actually think a little retainer spring keeps the fork in place, what a joke. I've proved this in another thread but all you have to do is use your brain if so equipped!!!
You have not proved anything. You are under the misconception that because you have to apply a little pressure when reinstalling the slave that it must be exerting pressure on the release arm. The only reason that is the case, is the fact that there is zero pressure against the end of the slave push rod when it is removed, and just the weight of the clutch pedal and gravity will force the slave rod out a little. Since both master cylinder and slave cylinder have the same, bore, there is no multiplication of forced derived by the hydraulics (like a normal hydraulic system), but it is just a fluid linkage. Once the release arm is driven back by the pressure plate springs, it takes very little force to keep it there. Even if the return spring were missing, the spnning pressure plate would tend to throw off the throw out bearing. That is why many who are missing that spring, hear a rattle until they put their foot on the clutch pedal.

I really don't care if you believe me or not, but all it takes is a simple reading of the fsm or you can go and read what centerforce says about it. The article that you claim is for another application from Novak, is speaking of clutches in general, and does apply. I've been doing clutches for 40 years, and sorry, but you my friend are just wrong.
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Old 01-14-2017, 06:41 PM   #15
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If you had half a brain and a little logic you would understand that the slave cylinder keeps constant pressure on the clutch fork which keeps the bearing in contact with the pressure plate. You actually think a little retainer spring keeps the fork in place, what a joke. I've proved this in another thread but all you have to do is use your brain if so equipped!!!
Getting a little personal there aren't we?

Sorry but you have no clue what you're talking about. This is clutch theory 101. I've been working on cars, trucks, motorcycles, bicycles and anything else with wheels or a motor for 50+ years.

The main reason for failure of TO bearings is from people resting their foot on the clutch pedal causing the TO bearing to spin constantly. They are not designed to do that.

When they spin constantly, they wear out super fast, get noisy, and can fail completely.
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Old 01-14-2017, 10:05 PM   #16
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Old 01-15-2017, 07:37 AM   #17
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Yep agree if it is actual throwout bearing itself people ride foot on clutch goes to constant spin goes to gets hot and slings out grease goes to bearing failure and noise

However are we sure in this case problem is noisy failed bearing as if it were noisy and failed and it was constantly in contact due to system problem or operator error would then expect constant noise unlike one properly retracting where noise only when pedal pressed

I would like to know status of prior 2 "failed" ones (post mortem findings)

Also was there any clutch slip before

Lastly why replace an entire tranny and a transfer case for a clutch and starter issue

Gotta be more to this story


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Old 01-15-2017, 11:11 PM   #18
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You have not proved anything. You are under the misconception that because you have to apply a little pressure when reinstalling the slave that it must be exerting pressure on the release arm. The only reason that is the case, is the fact that there is zero pressure against the end of the slave push rod when it is removed, and just the weight of the clutch pedal and gravity will force the slave rod out a little. Since both master cylinder and slave cylinder have the same, bore, there is no multiplication of forced derived by the hydraulics (like a normal hydraulic system), but it is just a fluid linkage. Once the release arm is driven back by the pressure plate springs, it takes very little force to keep it there. Even if the return spring were missing, the spnning pressure plate would tend to throw off the throw out bearing. That is why many who are missing that spring, hear a rattle until they put their foot on the clutch pedal.

I really don't care if you believe me or not, but all it takes is a simple reading of the fsm or you can go and read what centerforce says about it. The article that you claim is for another application from Novak, is speaking of clutches in general, and does apply. I've been doing clutches for 40 years, and sorry, but you my friend are just wrong.
Dennis lets just agree to disagree, I've got over 35 years experience myself and I know what I know. Take care!
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Old 01-15-2017, 11:13 PM   #19
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Getting a little personal there aren't we?

Sorry but you have no clue what you're talking about. This is clutch theory 101. I've been working on cars, trucks, motorcycles, bicycles and anything else with wheels or a motor for 50+ years.

The main reason for failure of TO bearings is from people resting their foot on the clutch pedal causing the TO bearing to spin constantly. They are not designed to do that.

When they spin constantly, they wear out super fast, get noisy, and can fail completely.
As trump says WRONG!!!
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Old 01-16-2017, 10:02 AM   #20
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Dennis lets just agree to disagree, I've got over 35 years experience myself and I know what I know. Take care!
I don't know why, but I really do care that you know how this works so I'm going to try one last time. You can prove this out without cutting a hole in your bell housing. Simply bungee your clutch pedal to the steering wheel so there won't be any pressure exerted on the hydraulics when the slave is removed. Then take a deepwell 1/2" socket, a ratchet, a pencil, a tape measure, and a small straightedge under your jeep. Remove the slave cylinder and immediately measure the distance the slave push rod sticks out of the slave (from it's mounting surface. On my jeep, it's 3 1/4". Next, use the eraser end of the pencil and use it to push the release arm forward until it makes contact with the pressure plate. Using a small straightedge across the flat surface of the slave mounting hole, hold it against the pencil at that point, then measure from the tip of the eraser to the straightedge. On mine, it's 3 3/8".

The difference is the amount of free play. Which if measured between the pp and throw out bearing would be slightly less and called the "air gap".

I know that once you try to replace a slave, all logic screams that the two must be in constant contact, and I get that. I have a bad habit of just looking at the first thing I see and making a judgement call on it...I call it the "Judge Judy Effect" , but in this case there's more to it.

Think about this, you are asking a bearing (as cheap as a throw out bearing) with an initial factory charge of grease to constantly spin between 1000 and 3000 rpm for 100k+ miles without any further lubrication. That in itself would be quite a feat.

If you are still not convinced, that's fine, and we can agree to disagree...keep the shiny side up.
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Old 01-16-2017, 06:20 PM   #21
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As trump says WRONG!!!
You might want to watch the video. It sort of shows exactly what all the folks who actually know how a clutch works have been trying to explain to you.
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Old 01-16-2017, 08:47 PM   #22
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a bore scope video may settle this issue. might need to drill a small hole ????
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Old 01-29-2017, 03:31 PM
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Well guys in spite of the ability for everyone to come to a "single" consensus on the matter I have had no issues in the 2 weeks since I installed the new pilot bearing, flywheel, clutch disc, clutch plate, clutch fork, clutch point pivot/spring clip, and throwout bearing. If I run into issue (again) I'll admit defeat and take it to a $hop.
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Old 01-29-2017, 03:45 PM   #24
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Well guys in spite of the ability for everyone to come to a "single" consensus on the matter I have had no issues in the 2 weeks since I installed the new pilot bearing, flywheel, clutch disc, clutch plate, clutch fork, clutch point pivot/spring clip, and throwout bearing. If I run into issue (again) I'll admit defeat and take it to a $hop.
Hopefully all will be good... I guess we kind of went sideways on your thread, sorry.
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Old 08-31-2017, 01:24 AM   #25
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Same problem 2k on new tob and getting noise

Hi guys i am having the same problem as the original poster with my throw out bearing. Installed new everything and after 2k and its making noise with your foot off the clutch pedal again.

I'm going to add a bit of fuel to the argument around whether the TOB is spinning all the time as well.

There is a tsb
http://project-jk.com/images/tsb/TSB_06-002-07.pdf

Which adds washers that would move the clutch fork closer to the clutch fingers, to increase preload.

I agree with the idea that you would not want the TOB to be touching the fingers all the time but this tsb seems to indicate otherwise with its preload comment.

Thoughts?
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Old 09-02-2017, 11:00 PM   #26
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Hi guys i am having the same problem as the original poster with my throw out bearing. Installed new everything and after 2k and its making noise with your foot off the clutch pedal again.

I'm going to add a bit of fuel to the argument around whether the TOB is spinning all the time as well.

There is a tsb
http://project-jk.com/images/tsb/TSB_06-002-07.pdf

Which adds washers that would move the clutch fork closer to the clutch fingers, to increase preload.

I agree with the idea that you would not want the TOB to be touching the fingers all the time but this tsb seems to indicate otherwise with its preload comment.

Thoughts?
Nobody's going to answer you because they're wrong!
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Old 09-02-2017, 11:24 PM   #27
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Nobody's going to answer you because they're wrong!
Jeep is wrong? I'd be interested in finding out as well the idea/theory behind this TSB, as it does sound like what he mentions...
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Old 09-03-2017, 07:38 AM   #28
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A Constantly spinning conventional throwout bearing will get hot enough to decrease its grease viscosity enough to loose the grease and then the bearing will fail

Been true as long as I have owned manual tranny vehicles and is still true but I you want to blame some other Magic theory that don't bother me one bit





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Old 09-03-2017, 07:46 AM   #29
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I do agree at six speed is a piece of overengineered underperforming crap that is overpriced and fortunately out of production including few parts available

http://www.jkowners.com/forum/161583...s/84046?page=1


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Old 09-03-2017, 07:56 AM   #30
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A Constantly spinning conventional throwout bearing will get hot enough to decrease its grease viscosity enough to loose the grease and then the bearing will fail

Been true as long as I have owned manual tranny vehicles and is still true but I you want to blame some other Magic theory that don't bother me one bit





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This is true, and keeping it in neutral at lights vs. having the clutch depressed will help extend its life. Although a Drivers Ed Teacher might frown upon doing so. I also think the POS throw-out bearing they use isn't helping matters much either.

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