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Old 04-25-2019, 02:32 AM
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ford 8.8 swap break master cylinder question

sorry if there is already a thread for this but I wasn't able to find it. So, My question is, do I need to upgrade my brake master cylinder when I install the 8.8 rear end? and if I do, what should I be lookin at for an upgrade?


thanks in advance for any help

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Old 04-25-2019, 05:50 AM   #2
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Not so much the master cylinder, but the proportioning valve needs to be changed out or modified to allow more rear fluid flow. You can use a valve from a TJ with all disc brakes. I believe the flare/fitting type may change in most cases. The other option is to change the remove the o-ring behind the plastic cap. You need to leave the spring, but removing the o-ring will allow some fluid bypass. Putting it back together can be tricky because of the spring.

I've heard that you can also just skip the valve and run directly off the MC. I'm not really comfortable with that myself, but it's up to you how to proceed. Do a search, and you can find info on the options.

That said, if you are running bigger tires, upgrading to a '95 MC and Booster will help provide a little more force and volume to the brakes as well. Not quite as good as a caliper upgrade, but probably cheaper. Good enough for 33's or 35's.

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Old 04-25-2019, 11:57 AM   #3
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Try it first will likely work fine stock
My 98 TJ swapped to rear disc required no mater cylinder or proportion valve changes

Costs nothing to try as is before launching into a change you may not need


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Old 04-25-2019, 01:04 PM   #4
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DRUM brake YJ's and TJ's use the same proportioning valve that the disc brake TJ's used as verified by Mopar part numbers, there is no difference.
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Old 04-25-2019, 04:52 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by agalloch07 View Post
disc/DRUM brake YJ's and TJ's use the same proportioning valve that the disc/DISC brake TJ's used as verified by Mopar part numbers, there is no difference.
Mind clarifying? I'm guessing this is what you meant(in red above)
If so, that's interesting and i guess there's no reason to modify it(proportioning valve).?
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Old 04-25-2019, 05:48 PM   #6
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Mind clarifying? I'm guessing this is what you meant(in red above)
If so, that's interesting and i guess there's no reason to modify it(proportioning valve).?
sorry i meant to type drum brake YJ's and TJ's

after looking though it seems only the 94-95 YJ's had the same proportioning valve the 1987-1993's were different. That dont mean they were valved any differently though they probably just changed the way it was machined for efficiency and changed the fluid sensor or something

https://www.moparpartsgiant.com/oem-...ing_valve.html

https://www.4wd.com/b/brakes-steerin...alve/_/N-clyrf
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Old 04-25-2019, 11:38 PM   #7
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At first, I ran my unmodified proportioning valve and there wasn't any improvement with braking over my original drum breaks (disc brake calipers require a lot more fluid to work than wheel cylinders). Then I modified my proportioning valve by taking out the o-ring and my braking drastically improved but the pedal went much lower which was weird at first (the rear brakes getting enough fluid to work right). Then I grabbed a proportioning valve out of a 4 wheel disc brake ZJ grand cherokee without abs and installed but there wasn't any difference compared to the modified proportioning valve. Finally I swapped in a 1995 yj dual diaphragm brake booster and dodge durango master cylinder and my braking was massively better.
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Old 04-26-2019, 12:03 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by c5wagner View Post
At first, I ran my unmodified proportioning valve and there wasn't any improvement with braking over my original drum breaks (disc brake calipers require a lot more fluid to work than wheel cylinders). Then I modified my proportioning valve by taking out the o-ring and my braking drastically improved but the pedal went much lower which was weird at first (the rear brakes getting enough fluid to work right). Then I grabbed a proportioning valve out of a 4 wheel disc brake ZJ grand cherokee without abs and installed but there wasn't any difference compared to the modified proportioning valve. Finally I swapped in a 1995 yj dual diaphragm brake booster and dodge durango master cylinder and my braking was massively better.

hmm, interesting. I just swapped a new rear end into my jeep with for 8.8" disc brakes but i am also running Chevy D44 calipers in the front. My braking is really bad right now but i think i still have air in the system that needs bled out.

I am hoping i dont need to swap master cylinders because i just did the dual diaphragm swap 2 years ago so i really dont want to buy another master (getting tired of replacing stuff i just bought). I am going to try and bleed it again but if that dont work i guess i will have no choice but to buy a durango master. This never ends...
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Old 04-26-2019, 12:10 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by agalloch07 View Post
I am going to try and bleed it again but if that dont work i guess i will have no choice but to buy a durango master. This never ends...
https://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/jeep...ade-yj-tj.html
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Old 04-26-2019, 12:42 AM   #10
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I have read that but that is a different style master it's not made to mate up the the dual diaphragm booster and the seals are wrong on it so i really dont want to get that involved trying to make 2 parts work that shouldn't. The Durango master is the same style though as far as the seal and the shaft.

And while reading around they claim a bigger master cylinder can be a bad thing because of lie pressure. The bigger the bore the more fluid it will push but it will have less pressure. I came across a post from the guy who i think owns blackmagicbrakes.com and he basically said the Ram master was a stupid swap for the reason that it's too big. He did not say which master to get just that the ram was a stupid one to swap.



So after seeing that and reading about the Durango master i sent him an email and told him about my setup. He told me to bleed it and if the peddle is firm but low swap the Durango master and it would bring it back up. Some people act like the factory one is big enough for must uses though.... i guess i will see.
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Old 04-26-2019, 06:10 AM   #11
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Very little of the braking is rear

I have both a 04 rubi with factory disc all 4 wheels and a 98 sport with d44 rear converted to disc and the stock 98 TJ master and valve brake just as well with disc

Properly adjusted drums brake just as well as disc and are self applying on the leading shoe (this less dependent on pedal pressure or vacuum assist)
Swapping to disc does not improve braking in normal dry non sustained conditions


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Old 04-26-2019, 03:31 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by agalloch07 View Post
I have read that but that is a different style master it's not made to mate up the the dual diaphragm booster and the seals are wrong on it so i really dont want to get that involved trying to make 2 parts work that shouldn't. The Durango master is the same style though as far as the seal and the shaft.

And while reading around they claim a bigger master cylinder can be a bad thing because of lie pressure. The bigger the bore the more fluid it will push but it will have less pressure. I came across a post from the guy who i think owns blackmagicbrakes.com and he basically said the Ram master was a stupid swap for the reason that it's too big. He did not say which master to get just that the ram was a stupid one to swap.



So after seeing that and reading about the Durango master i sent him an email and told him about my setup. He told me to bleed it and if the peddle is firm but low swap the Durango master and it would bring it back up. Some people act like the factory one is big enough for must uses though.... i guess i will see.
I have the durango, just used that as a small reference on how to adjust the push rod....

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Very little of the braking is rear

I have both a 04 rubi with factory disc all 4 wheels and a 98 sport with d44 rear converted to disc and the stock 98 TJ master and valve brake just as well with disc

Properly adjusted drums brake just as well as disc and are self applying on the leading shoe (this less dependent on pedal pressure or vacuum assist)
Swapping to disc does not improve braking in normal dry non sustained conditions


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Agreed, however, drums don't do well for cooling off for sustained braking as you mentioned. I use my jeep to go up and down the mountains so the discs were a massive improvement for the long haul, especially now with the automatic transmission....
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Old 04-27-2019, 12:06 AM   #13
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Recommend upgrading to the 95 YJ dual diaphragm brake booster or TJ dual diaphragm brake booster. Bigger tires and more weight require more braking power. The YJ single diaphragm system is barely adequate for stock rigs.
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Old 04-29-2019, 08:10 PM   #14
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I pulled the O-ring on mine and am enjoying the added braking ability. Thanks all
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Old 04-29-2019, 10:45 PM   #15
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I did the 78’ Mercury (Ford) Marquis Hydro Boost master cylinder and it is a little better than the stock MC. But requires a little bit more brake pedal pressure. It is do to the slightly lager bore of the master cylinder. It is a direct bolt on with just brake line adaptors.

So if it would be awsome if it bolts right up to the dual diaphragm brake booster.
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Old 04-29-2019, 11:49 PM   #16
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I did the 78 Mercury (Ford) Marquis Hydro Boost master cylinder and it is a little better than the stock MC. But requires a little bit more brake pedal pressure. It is do to the slightly lager bore of the master cylinder. It is a direct bolt on with just brake line adaptors.

So if it would be awsome if it bolts right up to the dual diaphragm brake booster.



I recall the late 95' YJ dual diaphragm brake booster is a bolt on. The TJ dual diaphragm brake booster is not . I could not find the late 95' system at the time. There are also some expensive aftermarket solutions available.
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Old 05-01-2019, 02:06 AM   #17
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I recall the late 95' YJ dual diaphragm brake booster is a bolt on. The TJ dual diaphragm brake booster is not . I could not find the late 95' system at the time. There are also some expensive aftermarket solutions available.
I have this on my list to hunt down.
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Old 05-01-2019, 10:11 AM   #18
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It took me a year of looking to find my 95 dual diaphragm booster. I was keeping an eye on it on Amazon and Rockauto.com and eventually both had them in stock but not for very long. As soon as it showed in stock i ordered one and they were gone within a week.
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Old 05-01-2019, 12:31 PM   #19
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Thanks for the heads up.
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Old 05-01-2019, 03:28 PM   #20
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I just bled my brakes again and the pedal got firmer and i seem some bubbles come out so i thought i finally got the air out of my system. Then i started the jeep and the pedal went to the floor again and brakes are as spongy as can be maybe spongier than they were before i bled it.



I am not sure if i still have air in the lines or what, this is really aggravating. I am considering buying speed bleeders so i can do this myself easier. Not sure if it's sucking air though the threads of the bleeder when i let off the pedal or not.



dual diaphragm booster and master, GM 10 bolt front calipers, Ford explorer rear calipers.
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Old 05-01-2019, 05:49 PM   #21
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I have this on my list to hunt down.
I actually took my booster out of a 99 cherokee, cut off the push rod eyelet and then measured my stock pushrod and then cut and welded it to the cherokee booster after setting up proper length. Works great and my stock rod was thicker so there was plenty of space to get a nice thick multi-pass welding bead.
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I just bled my brakes again and the pedal got firmer and i seem some bubbles come out so i thought i finally got the air out of my system. Then i started the jeep and the pedal went to the floor again and brakes are as spongy as can be maybe spongier than they were before i bled it.



I am not sure if i still have air in the lines or what, this is really aggravating. I am considering buying speed bleeders so i can do this myself easier. Not sure if it's sucking air though the threads of the bleeder when i let off the pedal or not.



dual diaphragm booster and master, GM 10 bolt front calipers, Ford explorer rear calipers.
Sounds like you're bleeding wrong, need to close the bleeder valve right before the pedal is done being pushed down or air will get into the system when you let off then tighten. Start at the passenger rear, then driver rear, pass front, then driver front. I also use a hand vacuum pump when I'm alone to make it easier.
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Old 05-01-2019, 11:44 PM   #22
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I use a Motive Power Bleeder for all my vehicles. I’ll never bleed brakes any other way again. It’s just to easy to use. It’s a one person ten minute job!

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/m...CABEgKvW_D_BwE
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Old 05-02-2019, 11:20 PM   #23
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I just bled my brakes again and the pedal got firmer and i seem some bubbles come out so i thought i finally got the air out of my system. Then i started the jeep and the pedal went to the floor again and brakes are as spongy as can be maybe spongier than they were before i bled it.



I am not sure if i still have air in the lines or what, this is really aggravating. I am considering buying speed bleeders so i can do this myself easier. Not sure if it's sucking air though the threads of the bleeder when i let off the pedal or not.



dual diaphragm booster and master, GM 10 bolt front calipers, Ford explorer rear calipers.

Did you touch the calipers? They can be installed upside down if passenger is installed on the driver side. I start with a gravity drain. Open bleeder until fluid leaks. Close bleeder. Repeat for other three wheels. Then perform normal bleed process.

One time I could not get a master cylinder bench bled or purged on the vehicle. After many hours I removed master cylinder lid. Had assistant VERY slowly push on brake pedal while lightly tapping on master cylinder just slightly toward the firewall. Use the plastic end of a screwdriver for tapping. This freed large amounts of air. If assistant pushes too hard on the brake pedal it could get into your eyes and/or all over the vehicle.
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Old 05-02-2019, 11:28 PM   #24
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Did you touch the calipers? They can be installed upside down if passenger is installed on the driver side. I start with a gravity drain. Open bleeder until fluid leaks. Close bleeder. Repeat for other three wheels. Then perform normal bleed process.

One time I could not get a master cylinder bench bled or purged on the vehicle. After many hours I removed master cylinder lid. Had assistant VERY slowly push on brake pedal while lightly tapping on master cylinder just slightly toward the firewall. Use the plastic end of a screwdriver for tapping. This freed large amounts of air. If assistant pushes too hard on the brake pedal it could get into your eyes and/or all over the vehicle.


Calipers are installed with bleeders at the top. Previously the master cylinder was bled and the brakes worked fine with the stock axles. Then i swapped Dana 48's into it and i had the rear line capped off it seeped a little but not enough to have to refill the master, maybe a table spoon overnight at the most.

I tried locking the brakes up in rocks and the fronts are locking up but the rears are not so i think the rear is the problem.

I put a loop in the bleed tube by tying a knot in it to keep air from getting into the bleeder. It kept the tube full of brake fluid but it might have sucked air past the bleeder threads. I thought about smearing grease on them to help prevent that from happening but i might just end up wedging a board between the pedal and the seat next time i mess with it.
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Old 05-03-2019, 07:59 AM   #25
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With my rear brake conversion I had a small unnoticed leak at banjo to caliper that kept me chasing my tail till I used new (non work hardened) copper washers on the caliper banjo bolts


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Old 05-23-2019, 10:16 PM
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thanks for all the info! axles have been swapped out and I definitely have less braking power now but its a long way from horrible. I will be looking into the 95 YJ dual flange though. over all pretty happy with the upgrade, even if the full Detroit locker is taking some getting used to


next up though will be a new set of shoes.
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Old 05-23-2019, 10:48 PM
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I will be looking into the 95 YJ dual flange though. .[/QUOTE]

excuse me "dual diaphragm"
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Old Yesterday, 12:42 PM   #28
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So I have a similar thread going too. So I’ll share what I have come to find out.

I spoke with Mr Blaine of Black Magic brakes and this is his advice on my setup which looks very similar to yours. He stated that the best setup for stock front calipers and the 8.8 rear is the 95 DD booster with the matching stock 95 master cylinder, leave the proportioning valve alone, and just his front pads. OEM quality rear pads are perfect. Oh and I’m running 33” 12.5’s.

So that’s what I’m goint to do.

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