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Old 07-08-2019, 08:22 AM
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Tire stuff I wish I had known m/t vs a/t

Sorry in advance for long tire-rant!! haha!! you've been warned!

So a couple of years ago I bought my first Jeep. I read up about Tires and following the advice I received from manufacturers, the ever-knowledgeable sounding internet, and tire shops I bought some Falken Wildpeak ATw3 (something like that).

The reasoning stated by all those places above was this: If you drive 90% or more of your time ON-road, then you need an All - Terrain. If you spend 90% of your time OFF-road, then maybe you need a Mud - Terrain. "But you won't like it on-road, and it will wear faster, and blah blah blah.."

BS

I have yet to get stuck on-road and needed a good ALL-terrain to pull me out, or needed a winch. I don't care if you spend 99.999% of your time on-road, if you spend ANY time off of the pavement, AND you don't like traveling with a recovery vehicle and/or winch, and/or don't wheel where there are convenient trees to winch from, then you should probably get a MUD terrain tire! haha! Especially if you have, like me, a Sport with open diffs, so you can't lock your tires up for that little extra traction. The BLD works okay sometimes on rocks, but it doesn't help at all in the mud, not once your tires become wet racing slicks! Maybe if you wheel in the desert where there is never mud you could get by with the AT's..

I don't need a Mud-terrain to climb mountains or float across sand, I can do all that with my AT's. (The wildpeaks are great on rocks!) If I can't get up some loose rocks on an incline, then I'll just ease back down. no problem. I'm not stuck. But if I end up having to cross mud that I can't clear out of my tires, I greatly increase my likelihood of getting stuck and having to recover. I hate mud. I don't seek it out. But I live in Houston, so anywhere I go, there will be mud...

Obviously just my opinion, and I guess it's good that I've had to learn about things like momentum and how to read mud, and more importantly the far embankment. And I've got to learn how to winch, so that's all good. Did you know that if you get stuck 300' from the closest skinny tree, that your buddy can let you slog up to him and combined with his winch, and two 50' recovery straps end to end and reaching your extended winch line, you can still get out?!

Anyway, so now that it's time 45,000 miles later to get new tires, I want something a bit more aggressive. Something that can self-clear mud better than my ATs. But something that I can still drive across the country.

I have a definite budget and the cooper stt pros are pretty near the ceiling of that budget. The Milestar Patagonia's get great reviews, but mud is not their chief forte.

If anyone has an alternate for me to consider, something that is still good on the road, but great on the trail and great in mud (or at least better than my Falken's), then I'd love to hear about it!

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Old 07-10-2019, 09:56 AM   #2
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If you end up in the mud, an M/T is the only option... For rock crawling, there is very little difference as long as it's a good A/T. In MOAB on the slick rock, I out climbed a set of Goodyear MT/R's with my Cooper S/T Maxx A/T's.

Now I am running the Patagonia's and am very happy... Softer compound than many others.

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Old 07-10-2019, 10:42 AM   #3
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I'm never installing mud terrain tires on my open-diff Sahara for the reasons the OP began with, and because my All Terrain tires (Duratrac previously, now KO2) have not had many issues with different types of terrain. Dirt, sand, rocks, ice, snow... even mud. I'll admit that I don't go through deep mud, I'd just as rather avoid it.
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Old 07-10-2019, 10:59 AM   #4
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I am replacing my stock tires with the Cooper Discoverer STT Pro. In one article, the writer compares them to combat boots for soldiers! Well, I wish my combat boots were that good when I served lol
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Old 07-10-2019, 01:05 PM   #5
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If you like your Falkens otherwise, get their mud terrains. Realize, however, that even a MT tire won't be wonderful in mud after 45,000 miles of wear.
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Old 07-11-2019, 08:07 AM
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Originally Posted by 15anvil View Post
If you like your Falkens otherwise, get their mud terrains. Realize, however, that even a MT tire won't be wonderful in mud after 45,000 miles of wear.
good point 15anvil! I DO like my Falkens pretty well. And I have thought about getting their MT. My bet is that it's a pretty good tire. I wish I could find a few more reviews about it. However, it's pretty close to the same price as the cooper stt pros, and there are tons and tons of positive reviews about them. So if I'll be spending close to the same amount, I'll probably go for the stt pros. For whatever it's worth, I'm sure I wouldn't be disappointed by the Falkens though. Do you have any experience with either?

Cheers!
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Old 07-11-2019, 08:23 AM
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Originally Posted by B4ZINGA View Post
I'm never installing mud terrain tires on my open-diff Sahara for the reasons the OP began with, and because my All Terrain tires (Duratrac previously, now KO2) have not had many issues with different types of terrain. Dirt, sand, rocks, ice, snow... even mud. I'll admit that I don't go through deep mud, I'd just as rather avoid it.
heck yeah B4ZINGA! I'd avoid deep mud every time if I could. But not at the cost of not going down a trail that I'd otherwise like to go down! And around here, if you go down trails, you will find yourself facing deep mud. almost every single time. it's a thing.

Here are pics from two different days on some trails. (the wife said she took it slow, but look at the mud streaks! they tell a different tale!) Gods I love that woman!
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Old 07-11-2019, 08:50 AM   #8
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Videos of the Gladiator Rubicon show the Falken MT tires.
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Old 07-11-2019, 12:51 PM   #9
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I'm running Dick Cepek Extreme Country which I find great in New England mud that tends to happen after it rains 40 days and 40 nights before our club hits the trails.

That said, I don't daily my Wrangler and consider the Wrangler to be what it's meant to be...an offroad vehicle that can legally go on the road to get to the next trail.

I've had zero measurable wear with maybe 4k miles on them. All measure 18/32". I rotate in the spare after every offroad run.
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Old 07-11-2019, 01:21 PM   #10
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The reasoning stated by all those places above was this: If you drive 90% or more of your time ON-road, then you need an All - Terrain. If you spend 90% of your time OFF-road, then maybe you need a Mud - Terrain. "But you won't like it on-road, and it will wear faster, and blah blah blah.."

What you really have to think about, whats more important, the ability to not get stuck on a trail or not have an accident (possibly you or someone else getting hurt or worse...) on the road?
ATs on a trail yeah you might get stuck, but you can get out.
MTs on the road do not handle anything like an AT at speed, throw in the heavy rains you get in TX and your MTs are now borderline dangerous, especially if anyone driving it has a heavy foot.


So if its a daily driver and you don't plan to buy a trailer for your Jeep then stick with a good AT, learn to pick your lines so you might not get stuck but be prepared to dig yourself out if you do.
Or get some MTs and a trailer to haul your now Mud Rig around to all the Mud bogs.


Of course your results may vary but I stand by that MTs are not meant for day to day street use and with anyone with a heavy foot are borderline dangerous.
Change my mind...
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Old 07-12-2019, 07:50 AM
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Of course your results may vary but I stand by that MTs are not meant for day to day street use and with anyone with a heavy foot are borderline dangerous.
Change my mind...[/QUOTE]

hey Screwlose. Interesting perspective. I doubt I can change your mind, or anyone else's mind about anything, but I'll give it a go.

Today's tire technology has come along way since MT's were super-swampers, and squirrely on the road. A lot of manufacturers still offer a true mud tire, but also offer a kind of AT/MT crossover that they still catergorize as a MT.

For example the cooper stt pros would probably have been classified as an AT 10+ years ago, but cooper may be trying to appeal to the growing jeep market by calling it a mt. Either way you want to classify it, it incorporates a lot of technology for on-the-road safety. silica compound, rain sipes, etc. It also weighs what some AT's weigh! from all reports it handles as well on road as many AT's.
https://expeditionportal.com/long-te...ooper-stt-pro/

it is not alone in that regard, either. I just used it as an example, but there are several manufacturers who are targeting this hybrid niche incorporating aspects of AT and MT into one tire.

I submit that if you remain aware of what you are driving and the potential weaknesses of your rig, you are no more dangerous than anyone else on the road. And probably less dangerous than millenials that are texting! ha!

Also, saying that you are dangerous with a heavy foot is true regardless of your tire! You could argue that we shouldn't lift our rigs, because they become more top-heavy and in an emergency maneuver more prone to rollling over! While true, those of us with lifted rigs also bear this in mind when driving and provide ourselves a little extra safety margin, as compared to how we drive our corvettes. just sayin..

So, I doubt I changed your mind, but that's my thoughts on the subject anyways!

Cheers brother!

Sam
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Old 07-12-2019, 08:15 AM   #12
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2 weeks ago, I had discount tire install a set of General Grabbers 33"x10.5"xR15"X3 on my 1990 YJ and less than a 100 miles on payment so far. My adult son said they look like school bus tires.
Anyway these X3s replaced the General Grabber AT2 tires and 2" taller. So far, I haven't noticed any overly loud road noise and happy with the new tires. Might be an alternate to look at.
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Old 07-12-2019, 10:25 AM   #13
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I see your long rant and raise you one re-rant...

The tread tells you nearly everything you need to know about overall performance. Not the overall look, per se, but the details. Wider tread voids will be better in mud. Smaller voids will be better on pavement. Larger tread blocks will be more tractive, but noisier. Smaller blocks are quieter. Blocks of differing sizes circumferentially will by quieter. Ribs will be more stable at speed and through standing water. Sipes will grip better in wet and ice.

The wild card is compound. Compound can either make a a basic AT climb sandy rocks that the MTs are better suited to, or it can also make an MT complete crap in the cold and wet. I have no proof, but I think the best gauge here is tread depth and cost. I believe tire manufactures aim for truck tires to last 40-50k miles on average. Logically, a tire with 17/32 tread will be firmer than one with 19/32 in order to boost the wear performance. Likewise, a more expensive tire will have more engineered into the compound to bring more benefits and fewer compromises.

So the statement in your first post about what the internet says about AT vs MT is right. But it is not about tractive potential or anything performance related. Fact is, mud tires suck at comfort on pavement. Like you said, modern MTs are not Swampers, but they are still MTs for a reason. If you can tolerate the deficiencies in comfort of a mud tire on the highway, then it is definitely the perfect tire for you because it compromises little offroad.

The STT Pro will be a full mud tire. The voids are too wide and blocks are too large to fulfill the AT lifestyle. It has some siping for rainy days, which is good, but most of the blocks are just large slabs so it will howl on the pavement.

However, if you really like your ATs for everything other than mud clearance, I think the two best tires for you will be the Duratrac or the ST MAXX. The tie-breaker is, if you want to drive in snow, get the Duratrac... if you want to better resist punctures, get the ST MAXX. Both are really good hybrids which feature wider shoulder voids with a tighter center section for rolling pavement. And maybe consider the Cepek Extreme Country or Cooper MTP for slightly better mud performance.
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Old 07-12-2019, 10:34 AM   #14
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I offroad a fair amount and while I do not seek out mud bogs as I really hate the mess it makes, I occasionally have had to cross muddy terrain. In all the trails I have done I have never been limited by my AT tires. I have mostly run Toyo AT2's, Toyo R/T's and Cooper ST maxx's. I have run each of the above mentioned tires in 285/75-17 and 35/12.5-17 and all did equally well (the R/T only 35/12.5-17). (I have run KO2 in 34x10.5-17 and they were only limited by lack of height not by tread). For what I do I have no reason to put up with the cons of a true MT and the pros of AT's just make more sense to me.

The above poster mentioned sandy rocks and the ST Maxx sticks like glue to sandy rocks.
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Old 07-15-2019, 07:44 AM   #15
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So, I doubt I changed your mind, but that's my thoughts on the subject anyways!

Cheers brother!

Sam

You hit the nail right on the head, today's hybrids are the best of both worlds.
You can find, for a price, a good off-road tire that will also do good on the streets, but I personally wouldn't call that a Mud Tire either, its a better AT.
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Old 07-15-2019, 09:15 AM
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2 weeks ago, I had discount tire install a set of General Grabbers 33"x10.5"xR15"X3 on my 1990 YJ and less than a 100 miles on payment so far. My adult son said they look like school bus tires.
Anyway these X3s replaced the General Grabber AT2 tires and 2" taller. So far, I haven't noticed any overly loud road noise and happy with the new tires. Might be an alternate to look at.
Cool! thanks for the tip. Those look pretty good (effective) I'll check into 'em!
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Old 07-15-2019, 09:21 AM
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I see your long rant and raise you one re-rant...

If you can tolerate the deficiencies in comfort of a mud tire on the highway, then it is definitely the perfect tire for you because it compromises little offroad.



HEY!! .. I like how you put that. Nicely describes the issue!



However, if you really like your ATs for everything other than mud clearance, I think the two best tires for you will be the Duratrac or the ST MAXX. The tie-breaker is, if you want to drive in snow, get the Duratrac... if you want to better resist punctures, get the ST MAXX. Both are really good hybrids which feature wider shoulder voids with a tighter center section for rolling pavement. And maybe consider the Cepek Extreme Country or Cooper MTP for slightly better mud performance.
thanks I'll look at the ST MAXX. I live in Houston, and we saw snow in 1988 (I built a 3" tall snowman with all the snow in the yard), but other than that, we've only HEARD about snow on the TV! LOL! I'll check out those other two (X country & MTP) also.

Cheers!
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Old Yesterday, 02:07 PM   #18
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thanks I'll look at the ST MAXX. I live in Houston, and we saw snow in 1988 (I built a 3" tall snowman with all the snow in the yard), but other than that, we've only HEARD about snow on the TV! LOL! I'll check out those other two (X country & MTP) also.

Cheers!
Lol that's a lot of snow!

If you haven't seen them yet, check out the vids for these Aussie guys, 4WD Action, on YouTube. There's usually at least one rig running the ST MAXX in their group. You can see what kind of situations they get into, and out of. There is mud and sand on every trip they take and I think you can compare it pretty well to the slop you get over there.

https://www.youtube.com/user/4wdaction/videos

And FWIW, I am picking up the ST Maxx today. My belief is they will grip better than the Wildpeak, ride better than a STT Pro, and tougher than the Duratrac. They also come in the freakishly skinny 255/85-16 so I am anxious to try that out.
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Old Yesterday, 02:41 PM   #20
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Lol that's a lot of snow!

If you haven't seen them yet, check out the vids for these Aussie guys, 4WD Action, on YouTube. There's usually at least one rig running the ST MAXX in their group. You can see what kind of situations they get into, and out of. There is mud and sand on every trip they take and I think you can compare it pretty well to the slop you get over there.

https://www.youtube.com/user/4wdaction/videos

And FWIW, I am picking up the ST Maxx today. My belief is they will grip better than the Wildpeak, ride better than a STT Pro, and tougher than the Duratrac. They also come in the freakishly skinny 255/85-16 so I am anxious to try that out.
I have had a lot of miles in the snow including many with the ST Maxx's and I love that tire (If you have followed any of my threads I have had several in different sizes including 295/70-17, 285/75-17 and 315/70-17) I recently put on a set of 255/80-17 Falkens on my stock rims to run around with and I can almost guarantee they will be better in snow then the ST Maxx's simply because they have much better siping and they do have the snowflake designation that the ST Maxx's do not have. This kind of snow is normal for me all winter long so I have some experience in making snowmen.


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