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Old 09-07-2011, 02:13 PM
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Anti-Spin Rear Diff

I will be getting a new Wrangler in the next few weeks, and would like some feed-back on this option. At first, it was something that I thought I HAD to have. Now, I'm not so sure. I'm going to be using this Jeep as a daily driver, and don't plan on off-roading with it. In the future I may, but probably not. Is this option something that will benefit me for the way I plan to use the Jeep? I live in PA, so we do get snow in the winter, and I figured it would help out bigtime with the snow, and when we get the heavy rains.

Any input is appreciated!!!

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Old 09-07-2011, 02:18 PM   #2
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If you have snow and rain the LSD will be beneficial. Plus it's only $300. It will cost you $1000 if you decide you want it later. Get the 3.73 gears while you're at it. There are those that say not to worry about it, if a wheel spins the brakes will be applied on that wheel to restore traction or move power to another wheel. I think it's better not to lose traction in the first place.

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Old 09-07-2011, 02:24 PM   #3
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Can you describe the difference in feel with goign up a hill in a JK with LSD vs. without with 1 foot of loose packed snow on the ground? I'm thinking the JK without LSD would experience engine stuttering as the ESP kicks in and limited RPM while the LSD would not, but I'm not sure on this.
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Old 09-07-2011, 02:32 PM   #4
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The LSD is something that I'm having a hard time with.

As a daily driver, I think it is a MUST. However, I have not heard great things about the LSD available for the Wrangler.

Basically....LSD is good (that sounds funny), but the particular LSD used on the Wrangler is meh.

I think I would get it anyway. Keep in mind that it will take some upkeep down the road.
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Old 09-07-2011, 02:34 PM   #5
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It's going to be my wife's DD. We live in Wisconsin. Thinking I should prob shell out the $$ for the LSD. Prob won't be taken off-road very often.
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Old 09-07-2011, 02:35 PM   #6
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Yes. You want the LSD. For $300, it's a steal. It will provide better traction in any low traction situation, including snow/ice.
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Old 09-07-2011, 02:39 PM
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If you have snow and rain the LSD will be beneficial. Plus it's only $300. It will cost you $1000 if you decide you want it later. Get the 3.73 gears while you're at it. There are those that say not to worry about it, if a wheel spins the brakes will be applied on that wheel to restore traction or move power to another wheel. I think it's better not to lose traction in the first place.
I'm going with an automatic Sahara Unlimited. I'm thinking that I'm going to go with the standard 3.21 gears, as I don't have urges to punch it, and I think the 3.21s will be fine with the new engine. Any reason to lose the MPG going to the 3.73s? Does anyone know what the difference in MPG should be(I understand no one drives the same, so MPG is going to be vastly different) between the 3.21 and 3.73?

Also, I probably will have the Jeep for ~8 years/85-90k miles, so long term, I'm not sure I'll have any issues with the LSD.
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Old 09-07-2011, 02:40 PM   #8
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Can you describe the difference in feel with goign up a hill in a JK with LSD vs. without with 1 foot of loose packed snow on the ground? I'm thinking the JK without LSD would experience engine stuttering as the ESP kicks in and limited RPM while the LSD would not, but I'm not sure on this.
I can't describe it for a JK, but I can describe it for my truck. With LSD the feel is that I'm going up the hill. Without it the feel is that I'm sliding backwards down the hill. With electronic brake whatchamakallit on the JK I suspect without it you will still be going up the hill, but probably not as smoothly.
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Old 09-07-2011, 02:42 PM   #9
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I'm going with an automatic Sahara Unlimited. I'm thinking that I'm going to go with the standard 3.21 gears, as I don't have urges to punch it, and I think the 3.21s will be fine with the new engine. Any reason to lose the MPG going to the 3.73s? Does anyone know what the difference in MPG should be(I understand no one drives the same, so MPG is going to be vastly different) between the 3.21 and 3.73?
Miniscule. What you're saying is, "I could have more power, but I choose not to have it."
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Old 09-07-2011, 02:49 PM   #10
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I'm going with an automatic Sahara Unlimited. I'm thinking that I'm going to go with the standard 3.21 gears, as I don't have urges to punch it, and I think the 3.21s will be fine with the new engine. Any reason to lose the MPG going to the 3.73s? Does anyone know what the difference in MPG should be(I understand no one drives the same, so MPG is going to be vastly different) between the 3.21 and 3.73?

Also, I probably will have the Jeep for ~8 years/85-90k miles, so long term, I'm not sure I'll have any issues with the LSD.
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Miniscule. What you're saying is, "I could have more power, but I choose not to have it."
I wouldn't even consider the change in mileage miniscule. I doubt it could be measured anywhere outside of a test lab and I have my doubts about that. And I work in a test lab.

The 3.73 is about more than power and the urge to punch it. In a slippery environment they will probably be easier to drive because the change in wheel speed won't be as drastic for a given throttle change as it will be with 3.21s. Obviously if you floor it you will get more wheel speed, but if you're easy on the gas a lower gear can actually be easier to drive. Depending on the phase of the moon when you buy the auto trans may come with the 3.73s anyway. If they don't it's well worth the $50.
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Old 09-07-2011, 02:55 PM   #11
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I can't describe it for a JK, but I can describe it for my truck. With LSD the feel is that I'm going up the hill. Without it the feel is that I'm sliding backwards down the hill.
Actually lol'd at that. Thanks, love this forum!
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Old 09-07-2011, 03:15 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by brainofj01 View Post
I'm going with an automatic Sahara Unlimited. I'm thinking that I'm going to go with the standard 3.21 gears, as I don't have urges to punch it, and I think the 3.21s will be fine with the new engine. Any reason to lose the MPG going to the 3.73s? Does anyone know what the difference in MPG should be(I understand no one drives the same, so MPG is going to be vastly different) between the 3.21 and 3.73?

Also, I probably will have the Jeep for ~8 years/85-90k miles, so long term, I'm not sure I'll have any issues with the LSD.
How and where are you going to drive it? Any future mods? Will you tow a lot?

With 5 gears in the auto's, you really won't see much of a difference above 50 mph or so. And no matter what, you don't gain much above 70mph power because your Wrangler is shaped like a brick with a parachute attatched to it.

Between 45mph and 75mph (where I do most of my driving), it really comes down to HP/torque vs RPM's vs drag.

RPM's at 70 mph: 3.21 = 1955 3.73 = 2271
RPM's at 60 mph: 3.21 = 1675 3.73 = 1947
RPM's at 50 mph: 3.21 = 1396 3.73 = 1622

I'm still looking for that magical spot that is right on the brink of diminishing returns.
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Old 09-07-2011, 03:29 PM
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How and where are you going to drive it? Any future mods? Will you tow a lot?

With 5 gears in the auto's, you really won't see much of a difference above 50 mph or so. And no matter what, you don't gain much above 70mph power because your Wrangler is shaped like a brick with a parachute attatched to it.

Between 45mph and 75mph (where I do most of my driving), it really comes down to HP/torque vs RPM's vs drag.

RPM's at 70 mph: 3.21 = 1955 3.73 = 2271
RPM's at 60 mph: 3.21 = 1675 3.73 = 1947
RPM's at 50 mph: 3.21 = 1396 3.73 = 1622

I'm still looking for that magical spot that is right on the brink of diminishing returns.
I have a 13 mile drive to work. 4 miles of which are backroads, the remaining 9 highway. I don't think I'll ever tow with it, and probably won't mod it at all(though, real HID lights would be nice, but those aren't the type of mods you're talking about).
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Old 09-07-2011, 03:46 PM   #14
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Another reason to get 3.73s is resale value. Whoever buys your JK when you're done with it will probably want to mod it. Having 3.73s will save them roughly $2k because the probably won't need to regear, and even if they do they are $600 ahead because they won't need new carriers. The $50 you spend now on 3.73s will more than pay for itself down the road.

Search this forum for the phrase "I really regret getting 3.73 gears" and then search it for "I sure wish I had 3.73 gears". I don't think you'll find a single utterance of the former and the latter will probably fill pages.
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Old 09-07-2011, 04:07 PM   #15
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I can't describe it for a JK, but I can describe it for my truck. With LSD the feel is that I'm going up the hill. Without it the feel is that I'm sliding backwards down the hill. With electronic brake whatchamakallit on the JK I suspect without it you will still be going up the hill, but probably not as smoothly.
Couldn't have described it better.
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Old 09-07-2011, 04:13 PM   #16
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Maybe it's because I live and grew up in new england, but I can't imagine going for a new, even semi new car and not considering LSD at the very least. Course I'm not much of a car guy, but having a shitty (albiet awesome '88 ford ranger) RWD pickup as a starter car certainly makes me appreciate any type of drive assist in this area. Since you know growing up traction control was fancy talk for bags of sand. Get the drive assists, you will never regret them. My wife waited longer for her Scion xD a few years ago to get VSC before it was a standard option, and everytime the roads are slick shes very glad she did
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Old 09-07-2011, 04:15 PM   #17
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Another reason to get 3.73s is resale value. Whoever buys your JK when you're done with it will probably want to mod it. Having 3.73s will save them roughly $2k because the probably won't need to regear, and even if they do they are $600 ahead because they won't need new carriers. The $50 you spend now on 3.73s will more than pay for itself down the road.

Search this forum for the phrase "I really regret getting 3.73 gears" and then search it for "I sure wish I had 3.73 gears". I don't think you'll find a single utterance of the former and the latter will probably fill pages.
True, but keep in mind the 3.73's with the new autos are nothing like the 3.73's with the old autos. With a different engine and tranny combo, the complaints about the old gearing don't apply as much because the new tranny is geared much shorter all the way down the line.

I'm trying to keep re-sale value in mind as well. But where I live, gas is $4.00 a gallon (got it for $3.93 yesterday). That is what makes this such a hard choice. (Not sure about gas prices where the OP lives).

What is needed is hard data that would allow me to compare MPG from 45mph to 75mph between two stock 2012 JKU auto's with 3.21's and 3.73's.

Is the difference between the two at highway speeds only a 0.5 mpg? Or is it 1.5 mpg? How much does it vary between 65 mph and 75 mph? Is 70 mph the limit before drag overtakes fuel economy regardless of rpm/power?

With that said, I do think the 3.73's are a good option for most people unless you are really, really, really concerned about mpg, won't do a lot of heavy towing, will do a lot of high speed travel, and won't do a lot of modding or heavy wheeling. Of course if you fall into that group (which I do), the Wrangler seems like an odd fit to begin with. But I also can't think of a more fun family vehicle than a JKU. Amercan made to boot.
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Old 09-07-2011, 06:24 PM   #18
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Given the 'even occasional' use where LSD might come in handy, I for one can not fathom why the advantages of having it would even be a serious question.

While not on the order of anomaly as being tone deaf or color blind, there are certainly an entire range of Jeeping experiences that are enhanced by LSD.

One can have pizza without pepperoni or huevos rancheros without the salsa I suppose.....but .....why?

LSD enhances the roadability and useability of nearly any work/pleasure vehicle that may wander into less than ideal traction circumstance.

I don't live in the flatlands, so my personal needs may be more demanding, as hardly a day goes by that LSD demonstrates its usefulness in my various travels.

I think it has keep me from actually *needing* 4H on numerous occasions.

It's so useful for me, I refuse to buy anything without it.

But, "YMMV"
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Old 09-07-2011, 06:38 PM   #19
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I love the LSD on mine. Would make sue to get again if I ever have to get another Wrangler. I added lockers to the front and with the lockers up front and the lsd in rear, I get the best of both worlds. LSD for great snow traction and lockers for rough trails with the assist of rear LSD. The combo is great.

If your not getting a Rubi then the Limited Slip is the best option to get. I had lockers front and rear on my last 4X4 truck and think I like the front locker/ rear LSD better.
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Old 09-07-2011, 09:31 PM   #20
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sorry for the noob question.

Only the sport and sahara models can have LSD as an option?

Is this because the Rubicon has lockers and there is no such thing as "limited slip" because it's "no slip" with the lockers?

So in the Rubicon when not using the lockers you must rely on the


Electronic Stability Control (ESC)
(2) With Brake Assist, All-Speed Traction
control, Electronic Roll Mitigation (ERM) and Brake Lock Differentials
for added traction (fake LSD)?

I have LSD on my '01 XJ so just trying to understand the differences.
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Old 09-07-2011, 09:44 PM   #21
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sorry for the noob question.

Only the sport and sahara models can have LSD as an option?

Is this because the Rubicon has lockers and there is no such thing as "limited slip" because it's "no slip" with the lockers?

So in the Rubicon when not using the lockers you must rely on the


Electronic Stability Control (ESC)
(2) With Brake Assist, All-Speed Traction


control, Electronic Roll Mitigation (ERM) and Brake Lock Differentials

for added traction (fake LSD)?

I have LSD on my '01 XJ so just trying to understand the differences.
Al
That is all correct.
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Old 09-07-2011, 11:38 PM   #22
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So on the Rubi if your not in 4=lo and elocked then you have an open differential? Or is it still a LSD?
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Old 09-08-2011, 07:21 AM   #23
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So on the Rubi if your not in 4=lo and elocked then you have an open differential? Or is it still a LSD?
Open.
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Old 09-08-2011, 08:20 AM   #24
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True, but keep in mind the 3.73's with the new autos are nothing like the 3.73's with the old autos. With a different engine and tranny combo, the complaints about the old gearing don't apply as much because the new tranny is geared much shorter all the way down the line.

I'm trying to keep re-sale value in mind as well. But where I live, gas is $4.00 a gallon (got it for $3.93 yesterday). That is what makes this such a hard choice. (Not sure about gas prices where the OP lives).

What is needed is hard data that would allow me to compare MPG from 45mph to 75mph between two stock 2012 JKU auto's with 3.21's and 3.73's.

Is the difference between the two at highway speeds only a 0.5 mpg? Or is it 1.5 mpg? How much does it vary between 65 mph and 75 mph? Is 70 mph the limit before drag overtakes fuel economy regardless of rpm/power?

With that said, I do think the 3.73's are a good option for most people unless you are really, really, really concerned about mpg, won't do a lot of heavy towing, will do a lot of high speed travel, and won't do a lot of modding or heavy wheeling. Of course if you fall into that group (which I do), the Wrangler seems like an odd fit to begin with. But I also can't think of a more fun family vehicle than a JKU. Amercan made to boot.
There are a ton of people on this forum running 4.88, 5.13, or 5.38 gears that have reported an increase in mileage with them. Granted, most have larger than stock tires.

The new trans isn't geared lower every where, just the first few gears. It still has about the same OD on the highway. The difference is mainly that they added a lower ratio first gear, then moved all the others closer together.

FWIW, the difference in fuel cost for 100k miles if the 3.73 drops the mileage by 1.5 mpg is about $1500 at current prices. $6 a week over 5 years to greatly increase the utility of a vehicle and make it more attractive to a future potential buyer is a pretty good deal.
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Old 09-08-2011, 08:42 AM   #25
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Please excuse me, I don't have much to say (unusual?), about the 2012 jeep-

The Pentastar/auto combo has drastically changed the preconceived combos of gearing with the 3.8L and they DON'T APPLY TO THE 3.6L/AUTO/manual--

I run the 5.38s as oilwell mentioned and I get 18+ mpg at 70mph and can get 19mph at 60mph--driving very level and no changes-(can't doit normally)

So my suggestion to any 2012 owners is DRIVEIT FIRST/CHANGE TIRES FIRST and THEN you'll know if any gear change, MAY BE advised--

You can never go wrong with the "LSD" option in any model--other than the Rubi

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Old 09-08-2011, 09:23 AM   #26
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There are a ton of people on this forum running 4.88, 5.13, or 5.38 gears that have reported an increase in mileage with them. Granted, most have larger than stock tires.

The new trans isn't geared lower every where, just the first few gears. It still has about the same OD on the highway. The difference is mainly that they added a lower ratio first gear, then moved all the others closer together.

FWIW, the difference in fuel cost for 100k miles if the 3.73 drops the mileage by 1.5 mpg is about $1500 at current prices. $6 a week over 5 years to greatly increase the utility of a vehicle and make it more attractive to a future potential buyer is a pretty good deal.
The gearing between the two auto tranny's are worlds apart.

Everything that has ever been discussed about the old auto tranny simply does not apply to the new one.
Here is the gearing:
1st 3.59 vs 2.84
2nd 2.19 vs 1.57
3rd 1.41 vs 1.00
4th 1.00 vs 0.69
5th 0.83 vs -----

5th gear on the new auto is shorter than 4th on the old auto.
The old auto did not even offer a 3.21 option.
At 65mph on stock tires, here are the RPM's:
3.21's on the 3.6 auto = 1815 RPM's
3.73's on the 3.8 auto = 1753 RPM's

As far as re-sale goes. I don't think it will matter much if it is being traded in. And unless 3.73's are guaranteed to get me +$1500 over 3.21's 10 years from now from a private buyer, there is no benefit to me for my particular needs right now. The biggest benefit is the option to go with bigger wheels....something that I don't plan on doing. With that said, if the MPG difference is tiny, there is no doubt in my mind that 3.73's are the better option.

For most people, I would say 3.73's (and LSD) are the way to go. I'm just waiting to get more info to see how big of a gap the fuel economy is at higher speeds.
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Old 09-08-2011, 09:27 AM   #27
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I agree that we are all just speculating about mileage and capability at this point, but there are a few things that are going to be the same despite the engine change.

The first is that if you order 3.21s and don't like them it will cost twice as much to change to a lower gear later. $50 is a small price to pay to have carriers that will accept something more favorable down the line.

The second is that the 3.6 doesn't make drastically more power than the 3.8 at the rpm levels you see in normal driving. I've driven the 3.6 and the 3.8 with both 3.21 and 3.73 gears, although they were all manual trans models. Just tooling around the difference is minimal. After driving the 3.6 with both gear ratios I think the auto/3.21 combination is going to spend a lot of time searching for the right gear just cruising around. This is a big reason that all but one of my vehicles are manual transmissions: I hate an auto that hunts for gears. It's annoying and it is a good source of pointless wear on the transmission. The only vehicle I own that has an automatic has 540 ft-lbs of torque, so it doesn't hunt for gears much. It's happy in any of them. The new auto does have an auto stick, but I can see that getting annoying after a while as well.

The last is that the new auto/3.73 should behave like the old auto/4.10 did. I don't remember anyone every complaining about having 4.10s with the 4 sp auto, and I doubt we'll hear much complaining about having 3.73 with the new one. I suspect there will still be some complainng about the 3.21, but that remains to be seen.

At the end of the day, most of us that have '12s have had to look at all the data and make an educated guess about what is best because there isn't a large pool of experience to draw from yet. Based on my very limited driving experience I couldn't imagine actually wanting the 3.21.

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