Dealer didn't bolt my wheel on - wheel flew off and hit another car after 50yds. - Page 6 - Jeep Wrangler Forum
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Old 04-13-2017, 08:16 AM   #151
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Dealer didn't bolt my wheel on - wheel flew off and hit another car after 50yds.

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Originally Posted by aqualungs View Post
Don't they do the 20 something point inspections when doing the Changes and rotations? If so they are guaranteeing some things to you and in reality you shouldn't have to check.

This is their liability at stake and as NoGABiker mentioned, it's expensive and it pays out. I'm sure the dealership can save a lot by not going that route, even though it is the proper route to go.

Let's say they pay out of pocket and don't address all the issues. OP has an accident and the proximate cause is the dealership skipped some steps and repairs. Big problem. Huge lawsuit


Say they file the claim. The insurance company will inspect and most likely properly fix and replace everything that should be. I would imagine OP could have it fixed at he shop of his choice.



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Also if there was no one in the Honda it would be a property damage claim. Open and shut. I'm sure they would accept the payout. They would get nothing more.


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Old 04-13-2017, 08:17 AM   #152
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He is a laborer. He is not a skilled worker. He is not factory trained.
I think you may be right about this. But do they really spend time during the "factory training" course going over lug nut installation?

Instructor, pointing to PowerPoint with laser: "And here, sticking through the holes in the wheel, we see what are called wheel lugs. Next to this, in the corner of the screen, you can see what look like 5 hardware fasteners of some type lying on the shop floor. These are called lug nuts. Can anyone tell me what you would do if you encountered this scenario in the shop? Anyone? Maybe one of you more experienced guys?"

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Old 04-13-2017, 08:27 AM   #153
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The wife told me something this morning after I was updating her on this thread. Her company has just implements a new cell/smart phone rule, which states all cell phone should be turned off while during business hours.. The employees are stuck at their desk on their cells all day while working.. In this case and the reason I say this.. The scenario, Assuming the mech was distracted by a cell call etc.. his girl friend and him had a fight that night etc and when he returned he forgot where he left off. Looking at the jeep he noticed the wheel was on and automatically figured it was done.. Clearly the mech thumb screw the lugs on without wrenching them.

I would trust my wife's scenario on this.
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Old 04-13-2017, 08:59 AM   #154
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The wife told me something this morning after I was updating her on this thread. Her company has just implements a new cell/smart phone rule, which states all cell phone should be turned off while during business hours.. The employees are stuck at their desk on their cells all day while working.. In this case and the reason I say this.. The scenario, Assuming the mech was distracted by a cell call etc.. his girl friend and him had a fight that night etc and when he returned he forgot where he left off. Looking at the jeep he noticed the wheel was on and automatically figured it was done.. Clearly the mech thumb screw the lugs on without wrenching them.

I would trust my wife's scenario on this.
Because blanket policies always work well, especially when it was likely implemented due to one situation and that is now likely to cover all potential scenario situations and will always have no negative impact after this blanket policy is implemented.

Makes a lot of sense.
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Old 04-13-2017, 09:15 AM
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I don't believe the guy who put my wheels on was the bus boy of the shop. There were several younger guys, early twenties, in plain clothes walking around and parking cars, tagging vehicles, etc. the guy who did mine was I think an actual mech. He had the whole jumpsuit on with MOPAR branding and there weren't many of them floating around. I was trying to be inconspicuous hanging out in the actual garage at after I pulled my Jeep in because they had his bad*** yellow JK in there that was super built. The guy had a turbo on it which had apparently blown the motor and his entire motor was being swapped out. The guy who did my wheels was casually talking about that Jeep with me while he rolled my wheels over to the bay slot/lift they moved my vic to.

This is a lot of assumptions on my part but my point is he seemed much more knowledgeable than just a porter or menial task Nick the New Guy.

I think I may call an attorney just to get some advice or guidance but I have zero intention of trying to sue. I just want to ensure whatever paperwork is need should something not be fully repaired I have should I need to press further.

SM has been more more sympathetic and I do believe that he is trying to get me squared away. If that's our if the goodness of his heart or just because it very likely is in his best interest to keep me calm and quiet is anyone's guess.

What sucks is that I'm here in NYC. If this was NC where 9/10 vehicles are being lifted I think they'd be much more savvy with the types of mods a Jeeper wants whereas in this area 9/10 people are probably getting their cars lowered and with 22" rims and so on


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Old 04-13-2017, 09:18 AM   #156
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I'm thinking that some of us have a misunderstanding of a business's general liability insurance. Who do you think would be harmed the most by insurance getting involved? Catfeathers, owner of a Jeep which might be reported on CarFax and might receive a several hundred dollars ding one day when he goes to sell? Or a business whose insurance company finds out they have an employee who has sent a customer out the door with a wheel that falls off after 50 yards?

Liability insurance premiums are high for any business; they must be astronomical for a dealership that works on cars for a living. The party that stands to lose if the dealership's insurance is called in is the dealership, far and away.
You're right, but they both stand to lose. I'm a business owner and know exactly how insurance works. IMO the OP stands to lose more because his pockets aren't as deep as the dealership's pockets are. Once flagged on CF the OP's Jeep is surely going to be worth less, and the insurance company is not in business to improve the OP's vehicle, nor are they in business to offer any goodwill gestures. They might also drag their feet, which will delay the repair for even longer. So basically if twisted enough the dealer might choose that route if they find the OP difficult or impossible to deal with. Granted they'd rather not for reasons already stated. IMO unfortunately the OP has to tread lightly.

OP contacting an attorney is a good idea. He can tell you just how lightly to tread! Good luck!
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Old 04-13-2017, 09:50 AM   #157
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... So basically if twisted enough the dealer might choose that route if they find the OP difficult or impossible to deal with. Granted they'd rather not for reasons already stated.
Based on my general liability premiums for my professional services company (low likelihood of Personal Injury claims) with annual revenues in the low 8-figures, I'd not be surprised if a 10% rate bump might occur if this was reported, and that result in a $1000/month hit to the dealership for 2-3 years. I'm speculating based on my industry; a commercial insurance pro could wade in here and set me straight there.

At any rate, it's a little like United Airlines. $800M loss in stock value since The Incident; think they maybe wish they could go back and just offer the 4 people who's seats they stole $5000 each to surrender their seats? Although in this case, it's Bad Insurance Rating, not Bad Publicity we're talking about.
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Old 04-13-2017, 10:01 AM   #158
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Based on my general liability premiums for my professional services company (low likelihood of Personal Injury claims) with annual revenues in the low 8-figures, I'd not be surprised if a 10% rate bump might occur if this was reported, and that result in a $1000/month hit to the dealership for 2-3 years. I'm speculating based on my industry; a commercial insurance pro could wade in here and set me straight there.

At any rate, it's a little like United Airlines. $800M loss in stock value since The Incident; think they maybe wish they could go back and just offer the 4 people who's seats they stole $5000 each to surrender their seats? Although in this case, it's Bad Insurance Rating, not Bad Publicity we're talking about.
I hear ya. The bottom line is there will be no winner in this. I tend to side with the little guy. I wish the OP well.
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Old 04-13-2017, 10:09 AM   #159
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Scary stuff. Almost happened to me a few weeks back when I had my wheels bedlined. Started hearing rattling, stopped 3 times to check in a few hundred feet of driving. It was the metal centre caps being loose that caused the noise. Wheels looked to be tightened at first, but on the third stop they had loosed and were about to fall off. All 4 of them.
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Old 04-13-2017, 10:37 AM   #160
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I hear ya. The bottom line is there will be no winner in this. I tend to side with the little guy. I wish the OP well.
Amen to that! It's not often we have such clear evidence of neglect on the part of a service provider who fails to provide good service. I want the OP to get made whole, and I'd like for him to have icing on top of that to restore some goodwill.

If I were the owner, this guy would get a new Jeep, from stock if possible, special ordered if necessary. Period. My losses would be minimal as I could sell his old one off the lot with no accident report, everything properly repaired of course, and lose minimal dollars in the deal. But that only "makes him whole." In other words, as new as his was when he brought it to me, by giving him another new one I haven't actually done anything but removed the effects of my company's mistake on him.

But he's still had the embarrassment (anybody who saw it happen would just assume it's the fault of the asshole Jeep driver with his big tires); he still has the potential liability if Mr. Honda gets feisty; the hassle of returning to the dealership and waiting for things to be made right, and on and on.

So were he a customer of mine, Catfeathers would either get a better new Jeep (up a trim level, for instance), or would get a new Jeep equivalent to his old one with some freebies thrown in like a regear. My intent would be to 1) make him whole, no worse than he was when he came in, and 2) make him better than whole to try and offset his bad experience. And I would be doing this up front -- he wouldn't be asking me for these things. I'd beat him to the punch. Maybe give him a thousand-dollar credit for parts and labor.

In the end, my goal would be for Catfeathers to be my dealership's biggest fan.
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Old 04-13-2017, 10:49 AM   #161
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Thank you @NoGaBiker for re-uttering my "Make Him Whole" comment.. this only seems to be the most logical choice. What I see happening.. is the dealership/who ever is going to get the cheapest possible estate from a local body shop or use the dealerships body shop and correct the damage.. But we all may know that some parts just don't mate up correctly if something structurally has been damaged and what about parts that might need repainting.. I don't see the color matching perfectly.
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Old 04-13-2017, 10:53 AM   #162
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I think it's a good idea that whenever you have work done that requires the removal of wheels from your vehicle, to get your star wrench out and check to make sure all the lug nuts are tight before you roll off.

Especially knowing that most after market wheels are not hub centric. These guys in the shops work on so many vehicles in a day and they have distractions during the day. Most times they put the lugs on by hand then use the speed wrench then tighten by hand. They might forget a step on one side of the vehicle or maybe just on one wheel, or might just miss one lug nut. In which case you'll probably lose that lug.

If your wheels are not hub centric you're not going to get very far if they're not tightened right. Very dangerous as the OP can testify. Always double check them yourself.
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Old 04-13-2017, 11:08 AM   #163
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Actually, I would think non-hubcentric wheels would be safer in this one instance. Because as soon as the lugs start to loosen, the wheel is going to start to wobble and eat out the five lug holes very quickly. You'll feel a terribly out of balance wheel, probably before The Lugnuts come all the way off. Whereas, hub-centricity would tend to keep the wheel balanced and not wobbling longer.

and a shout out to Siri for spelling hub-centric correctly without my input! Skynet is getting closer and closer…
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Old 04-13-2017, 11:14 AM   #164
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for insurance purposes, ask for loss of value of asset. they never mention it, but your vehicle is worth less.

I was in an accident (not my fault, she tried to hit and run but I had her license plate) that bent my axle. They had a difficult time getting it right until the shop foreman did the repair. I would suggest requesting the shop foreman.
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Old 04-13-2017, 11:15 AM   #165
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btw, the dealership had put a 4" lift kit on my sport jku. After the foreman did the repairs, I think it actually drives better. I had about 2k miles on it when I was hit.
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Old 04-13-2017, 11:30 AM   #166
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Actually, I would think non-hubcentric wheels would be safer in this one instance. Because as soon as the lugs start to loosen, the wheel is going to start to wobble and eat out the five lug holes very quickly. You'll feel a terribly out of balance wheel, probably before The Lugnuts come all the way off. Whereas, hub-centricity would tend to keep the wheel balanced and not wobbling longer.

and a shout out to Siri for spelling hub-centric correctly without my input! Skynet is getting closer and closer…
That's true if they're extremely loose. If they are barely loose then they side load the bolts and sheer them off.
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Old 04-13-2017, 11:40 AM   #167
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Amen to that! It's not often we have such clear evidence of neglect on the part of a service provider who fails to provide good service. I want the OP to get made whole, and I'd like for him to have icing on top of that to restore some goodwill.

If I were the owner, this guy would get a new Jeep, from stock if possible, special ordered if necessary. Period. My losses would be minimal as I could sell his old one off the lot with no accident report, everything properly repaired of course, and lose minimal dollars in the deal. But that only "makes him whole." In other words, as new as his was when he brought it to me, by giving him another new one I haven't actually done anything but removed the effects of my company's mistake on him.

But he's still had the embarrassment (anybody who saw it happen would just assume it's the fault of the asshole Jeep driver with his big tires); he still has the potential liability if Mr. Honda gets feisty; the hassle of returning to the dealership and waiting for things to be made right, and on and on.

So were he a customer of mine, Catfeathers would either get a better new Jeep (up a trim level, for instance), or would get a new Jeep equivalent to his old one with some freebies thrown in like a regear. My intent would be to 1) make him whole, no worse than he was when he came in, and 2) make him better than whole to try and offset his bad experience. And I would be doing this up front -- he wouldn't be asking me for these things. I'd beat him to the punch. Maybe give him a thousand-dollar credit for parts and labor.

In the end, my goal would be for Catfeathers to be my dealership's biggest fan.
I'm from L.I. NY and worked in car sales for a few years and learned from some of the biggest and best thieves, liars, cheats, etc, etc, etc, in the business. As a result I have zero respect for dealers. Some of them were nice guys, doing what they had to do to keep their jobs! I could write a book on what went on. LOL But it was a great education and that education has helped me, friends, and family deal with dealerships.

Maybe in other parts of the country what you're saying might happen, around here you'd have a better chance of winning the lottery and getting hit by lightening on the same day. LOL It could happen but..........

If the dealer stepped up to the plate in the way you're saying it would be a great PR move, probably win a customer for life, and increase sales. Around these parts highly unlikely, they're looking at how fast and cheap they can get out of the mess. Another lost customer, add them to a long list. I do like your idea though! A lot!
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Old 04-13-2017, 12:05 PM   #168
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I'm from L.I. NY and worked in car sales for a few years and learned from some of the biggest and best thieves, liars, cheats, etc, etc, etc, in the business. As a result I have zero respect for dealers. Some of them were nice guys, doing what they had to do to keep their jobs! I could write a book on what went on. LOL But it was a great education and that education has helped me, friends, and family deal with dealerships.

Maybe in other parts of the country what you're saying might happen, around here you'd have a better chance of winning the lottery and getting hit by lightening on the same day. LOL It could happen but..........

If the dealer stepped up to the plate in the way you're saying it would be a great PR move, probably win a customer for life, and increase sales. Around these parts highly unlikely, they're looking at how fast and cheap they can get out of the mess. Another lost customer, add them to a long list. I do like your idea though! A lot!
I definitely believe you on that count. And I was just writing how I would handle it if I owned a dealership. I have little hope that many dealership owners would actually behave that way. Which is crazy, IMO. Sure, I wouldn't give a guy with a 50,000-mile 4YO Jeep a new one. But somebody with a couple-of-days-old Jeep? I'd sure do it.

Look at it this way: Say the dealer netted $1000 on the first deal with these metrics: They bought the Jeep for 40,000, sold it for $40,500, and get $500 in holdbacks from Chrysler.

Now they give Horsefeathers $40,500 back as a refund for his Jeep, and sell him another one for 40,500. They refunded their $500 profit (but I assume get to keep the holdback). They make that back when they sell him a new one for 40,500. And it's not like they had to "sell it" again; he's standing there with cash in hand that they just gave him. Plus they get another holdback for $500.

So they have the original $500 holdback, the 2nd $500 holdback, and the $500 profit from the second sale. Plus a slightly used Jeep.

So they can now sell that used Jeep for up to $1500 less than their cost on a new one (we said that was $40,000 in this hypothetical) and break even. Sure, they lose the profit of the original sale, but they're not actually out any money.

So they can sell the used one for 38,500 (which somebody would jump at given it has 100 miles or something on it) and their "loss" of $1500 vs. what they paid for Catfeathers' 2nd new Jeep would be offset by the $1500 in profit they made on the two sales to him.

And now they can give him, say, a thousand dollar Service Dept gift card for parts/labor. Cost them a grand and a little extra paperwork done by salaried employees who won't cost the dealership any extra labor cost. And for that thousand dollars they have a guy on Jeep fora bragging about the incredible dealership that MADE IT EFFING RIGHT WHEN THEY SCREWED UP!!!

That's worth more than a grand to me in publicity. But more importantly, it's worth way more than a grand in Honorable Man points.
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Old 04-13-2017, 12:28 PM   #169
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I definitely believe you on that count. And I was just writing how I would handle it if I owned a dealership. I have little hope that many dealership owners would actually behave that way. Which is crazy, IMO. Sure, I wouldn't give a guy with a 50,000-mile 4YO Jeep a new one. But somebody with a couple-of-days-old Jeep? I'd sure do it.

Look at it this way: Say the dealer netted $1000 on the first deal with these metrics: They bought the Jeep for 40,000, sold it for $40,500, and get $500 in holdbacks from Chrysler.

Now they give Horsefeathers $40,500 back as a refund for his Jeep, and sell him another one for 40,500. They refunded their $500 profit (but I assume get to keep the holdback). They make that back when they sell him a new one for 40,500. And it's not like they had to "sell it" again; he's standing there with cash in hand that they just gave him. Plus they get another holdback for $500.

So they have the original $500 holdback, the 2nd $500 holdback, and the $500 profit from the second sale. Plus a slightly used Jeep.

So they can now sell that used Jeep for up to $1500 less than their cost on a new one (we said that was $40,000 in this hypothetical) and break even. Sure, they lose the profit of the original sale, but they're not actually out any money.

So they can sell the used one for 38,500 (which somebody would jump at given it has 100 miles or something on it) and their "loss" of $1500 vs. what they paid for Catfeathers' 2nd new Jeep would be offset by the $1500 in profit they made on the two sales to him.

And now they can give him, say, a thousand dollar Service Dept gift card for parts/labor. Cost them a grand and a little extra paperwork done by salaried employees who won't cost the dealership any extra labor cost. And for that thousand dollars they have a guy on Jeep fora bragging about the incredible dealership that MADE IT EFFING RIGHT WHEN THEY SCREWED UP!!!

That's worth more than a grand to me in publicity. But more importantly, it's worth way more than a grand in Honorable Man points.
I agree, the problem is there are too many moving parts for it to work to their liking. They want the quick fix, even if they lose a customer and get some bad PR in the process. Sad, real sad.
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Old 04-13-2017, 12:43 PM
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Unfortunately aside from standing outside of their storefront with a sign I don't have any good means of spreading the word of my dissatisfaction. At the end of the day none of it comes out of the SM or mechanics pocket, so
I believe if I can keep/place him on my team I'll be able to get further with less work than if I tried to bully them or get lawyers/insurance/corporate involved.

In other news this dealership charges $135/hr labor. Yes, this is expensive but it's about right considered to cost of living here, etc, etc. disregard that dollar figure, I understand dealerships gouge and all of that. Assuming getting them to do it for fee is out of the question, how much of a discount should/could I "expect"?

Does that labor rate go straight towards the mechanics or are they usually salaried?


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Old 04-13-2017, 12:54 PM   #171
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In other news this dealership charges $135/hr labor. Yes, this is expensive but it's about right considered to cost of living here, etc, etc. disregard that dollar figure, I understand dealerships gouge and all of that. Assuming getting them to do it for fee is out of the question, how much of a discount should/could I "expect"?

Does that labor rate go straight towards the mechanics or are they usually salaried?
I am sure the mechanics would really, really like if the $135/hr went directly into their pockets. That would be, what, around a quarter-mil a year?
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Old 04-13-2017, 01:39 PM
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I am sure the mechanics would really, really like if the $135/hr went directly into their pockets. That would be, what, around a quarter-mil a year?


Haha you're right I didn't consider that at all. Would a discount reduce their take-home at all you think?


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Old 04-13-2017, 02:29 PM   #173
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Say they file the claim. The insurance company will inspect and most likely properly fix and replace everything that should be. I imagine the OP could have his Jeep repaired at the shop of his choice. Peace of mind.



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This would only happen if the OP makes the claim through his own insurance company.
The dealerships insurance would cover the costs to the daaler, but as mentioned earlier, their own rates would increase.
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Old 04-14-2017, 12:34 PM   #174
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Haha you're right I didn't consider that at all. Would a discount reduce their take-home at all you think?


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no. They get paid per hour, just like any employee at another job. If the dealership screws up and has to fix/replace something for free, the mechanic does not in turn work for free. The dealership eats it
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Old 04-14-2017, 12:39 PM   #175
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6 pages, 175 posts (so far)...

Thank God 2 wheels didn't come off.
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Old 04-14-2017, 12:44 PM   #176
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Thank God 2 wheels didn't come off.
Yet.
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Old 04-14-2017, 01:24 PM   #177
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Thank God 2 wheels didn't come off.
says the guy who wants an act of Congress to drive doorless...
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Old 04-15-2017, 01:16 AM   #178
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says the guy who wants an act of Congress to drive doorless...
as do i
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Old 04-15-2017, 06:18 AM   #179
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says the guy who wants an act of Congress to drive doorless...
Whatever that has to do with....Anything.
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Old 04-15-2017, 09:16 AM   #180
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So what was the resolution?

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