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Old 03-15-2018, 02:29 PM   #31
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Dealers care very much about things other than new vehicle sales.

As someone mentioned in a different post, a dealer wants their absorption ratio to be as close to 1 as possible.

That is the amount of profit they are making off parts and service compared to their expenses.

Perfect world for a dealer would be to cover all expenses with parts and service and have sales be straight profit.


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Old 03-15-2018, 03:30 PM   #32
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Bullshit.

You can't start stripping parts off of new vehicles to make warranty repairs. How would you feel if you went to pick up your "new" Wrangler and found out that they had been stripping it for parts then replacing them as they came back in stock? They are protecting the customer by not stripping new vehicles for parts, instead of being short sighted. Short sighted is turning a one customer problem into a multiple customer problem.[/QUOTE]

I agree. If they did this I don't know what that would make that unit, but it wouldn't be new.

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Old 03-15-2018, 03:38 PM   #33
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I agree. If they did this I don't know what that would make that unit, but it wouldn't be new.
Well, if they pulled a thingamajig off a new Jeep, put it on a customer's Jeep, and then 3 weeks later when the backordered thingamajigs came in installed one on the new Jeep on the lot, yeah, that's still a new Jeep. Legally, morally, ethically, practically, and in any other way I can think of, that's a new Jeep.

Heck, vehicles that get damaged in transit (shipping from overseas) are almost always just repaired at either the import facility, the North American HQ for the company, or the dealership bodyshop. Think about it: they don't scrap them, they don't sell them as "used", and they don't send them back to the manufacturer to be disassembled and sent back through the paint shop. And ones that are damaged in transit to the dealer are usually repaired in the dealer bodyshop and sold as new. I would be upset about that. But not sticking another electrical doohickey in place of the first one.
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Old 03-15-2018, 04:26 PM   #34
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Legally, morally, ethically, practically, and in any other way I can think of, that's a new Jeep.
Ok, maybe legally, that's it. What would be the difference of swapping engines or anything else.... most reasonable people will take the Brand New untouched, unmolested vehicle before the Brand New parts vehicle. New is new, as it came from the factory ie. Original parts. Anything less is not "New". IMO. Do they do it? Probably some, is it right? Not if I'm buying it.

The ones damaged in transit are paid for and/or repaired by insurance without a doubt. Do they sell them as new without a disclaimer and at full price? I don't know (doubt it) but if they are that is certainly not ethical. If you believe that or would buy that one, then well you're, deserving of my respect to keep my opinion to myself.
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Old 03-15-2018, 04:31 PM   #35
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... And ones that are damaged in transit to the dealer are usually repaired in the dealer bodyshop and sold as new. I would be upset about that.
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Do they sell them as new without a disclaimer and at full price? I don't know (doubt it) but if they are that is certainly not ethical. If you believe that or would buy that one, then well you're, deserving of my respect to keep my opinion to myself.
Yes, you do well to keep your opinion to yourself if you're not going to carefully read my statements before commenting on them.
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Old 03-15-2018, 04:36 PM   #36
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What would be the difference of swapping engines or anything else....
If you don't see a difference in swapping an engine and pulling a single electrical component and replacing it with an identical electrical component, then I can see why you would be bothered by either practice. Carry on...
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Old 03-15-2018, 04:42 PM   #37
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If you don't see a difference in swapping an engine and pulling a single electrical component and replacing it with an identical electrical component, then I can see why you would be bothered by either practice. Carry on...
agree 100% it is a plug and play component that is a 1 minute job. I come from a different world but on my Harleys they often swapped out plug and play warranty items off new bikes, which strangely enough one time was the ECM on a new flhtc that failed about 30 miles after I bought it.
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Old 03-15-2018, 07:24 PM   #38
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=
Heck, vehicles that get damaged in transit (shipping from overseas) are almost always just repaired at either the import facility, the North American HQ for the company, or the dealership bodyshop. Think about it: they don't scrap them, they don't sell them as "used", and they don't send them back to the manufacturer to be disassembled and sent back through the paint shop. And ones that are damaged in transit to the dealer are usually repaired in the dealer bodyshop and sold as new. I would be upset about that. But not sticking another electrical doohickey in place of the first one.
If you don't see a difference in repairing shipping damage and pulling parts off of your new jeep then replacing them before you buy it, then I can see why you wouldn't be bothered by either practice. Carry on...

Where exactly do you draw the line? Swapping out a bad stereo is just pulling a single electrical component and replacing it with an identical electrical component. Would that be OK? What about when you pull the ECM, then figure it can't be sold until after you get one, so may as well pull any other spare parts that are out of stock. How many dealership replaced items are you fine with being removed from your Jeep?

Now, can you also guarantee that all buyers are as understanding as you are?
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Old 03-15-2018, 07:27 PM   #39
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Heck, vehicles that get damaged in transit (shipping from overseas) are almost always just repaired at either the import facility, the North American HQ for the company, or the dealership bodyshop. Think about it: they don't scrap them, they don't sell them as "used", and they don't send them back to the manufacturer to be disassembled and sent back through the paint shop. And ones that are damaged in transit to the dealer are usually repaired in the dealer bodyshop and sold as new. I would be upset about that. But not sticking another electrical doohickey in place of the first one.
Swapping out fenders, doors and things might be OK but not if they use body filler and paint over it and then try to sell it as new. I used to work in a Chrysler assembly plant and I occasionally worked around the repair booth people off the end of the line. They told me that they could not use any type of body filler on a new vehicle and still sell it as new.
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Old 03-15-2018, 08:02 PM   #40
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... And ones that are damaged in transit to the dealer are usually repaired in the dealer bodyshop and sold as new. I would be upset about that.
Yes, you do well to keep your opinion to yourself if you're not going to carefully read my statements before commenting on them.
Read and comprehended. YOU would be upset, but as you stated you still think its morally and ethically ok, that's what I'm referring too.

So any electrical component ok, engine not. Where is your line? Window motor? Crank sensor? seat belt? Heater core. Alternator? What and how should decide it's no longer as new? Size of job? Cost of part? Time to remove part? Imo, once you start wrenching on my "new" car, its not factory new. I'm sure it happens but it doesn't make it morally or ethically right. Next time you buy a new car, ask for the one they used for parts, since your ok with it, I'm sure the next buyer won't be mad.
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Old 03-15-2018, 08:14 PM   #41
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If you don't see a difference in repairing shipping damage and pulling parts off of your new jeep then replacing them before you buy it, then I can see why you wouldn't be bothered by either practice. Carry on...
Huh??? I do see such a difference, and specifically called it out in my first statement on the subject, then highlighted it in a bold font in my kindly rejoinder to Mr. Geared. I'm pretty clear on the difference between doing undisclosed body work and respray on a new car vs. pulling a relay, ECU, stereo HU, speaker, or other plug-n-play electrical or mechanical component.

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Where exactly do you draw the line? Swapping out a bad stereo is just pulling a single electrical component and replacing it with an identical electrical component. Would that be OK? What about when you pull the ECM, then figure it can't be sold until after you get one, so may as well pull any other spare parts that are out of stock. How many dealership replaced items are you fine with being removed from your Jeep?
It's not rocket surgery. I draw the line at actions that require human skill/artistry to execute, such as paint or body work, or actions that are complex and result in a non-numbers-matching car, such as motor and transmission replacement. All of these are easily detectable by an expert on the model. A replaced stereo or relay isn't.


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Now, can you also guarantee that all buyers are as understanding as you are?
I daresay some are neither as understanding nor as thoughtful as I am. I'm sure if I searched I could find examples...

Cheers!
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Old 03-16-2018, 10:36 AM   #42
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Huh??? I do see such a difference, and specifically called it out in my first statement on the subject, then highlighted it in a bold font in my kindly rejoinder to Mr. Geared. I'm pretty clear on the difference between doing undisclosed body work and respray on a new car vs. pulling a relay, ECU, stereo HU, speaker, or other plug-n-play electrical or mechanical component.



It's not rocket surgery. I draw the line at actions that require human skill/artistry to execute, such as paint or body work, or actions that are complex and result in a non-numbers-matching car, such as motor and transmission replacement. All of these are easily detectable by an expert on the model. A replaced stereo or relay isn't.




I daresay some are neither as understanding nor as thoughtful as I am. I'm sure if I searched I could find examples...

Cheers!
The problem is some of those plug and play devices require disassembly of other things. You start popping trim panels on and off, you fatigue the plastic. The more you do it, the more creaks, squeaks and rattles you develop. What about swapping out a prepainted hood or doors? No artistry needed. No more skill than is required for pulling a head unit.

As for finding examples, I can find examples of people who will accept orange peeled paint, and inconsistent body panel gaps. Does that make those things acceptable? The problem is that it isn't what you or I find acceptable or unacceptable, it's what the vast majority of customers would be OK with. In fact the number of people not OK with it has to be less than the number of people who have an issue with unavailable replacement parts who are also OK with having parts taken off of another Jeep.

I personally, agree with you for the most part about it not being a big deal for certain parts to be pulled. The problem is the overall system has to be acceptable to more people than just us. That doesn't even address the issue of certain vehicles becoming parts donors that always seems to happen.

Personal feelings aside, it's a bad can of worms to open up from a best practices standpoint.

Now I'm going to run down into the basement and scavenge some parts from one machine to make another work since we never seem to have enough spare parts to keep everything running!
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Old 03-16-2018, 11:23 AM   #43
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Maybe it's just me but, seems like a lot of back and forth over a "hypothetical" that hasn't occurred and probably won't.

It seems logical (to me) that the reason Why it won't happen is precisely because any car dealership is comprised of 5 profit centers each responsible to their bottom line.
New car
Used car
Finance/Warranty
Service/Parts
Body shop

IF the New Car Manager saw a Parts or Service Manager cracking the hood on one of "his" cars basically rendering it "unsellable" for the foreseeable future there would be blood letting in the parking lot.
Ain't gonna happen.
Parts and service guys get "paid" a salary.... car salesmen - make money selling cars. Period.
Take their product away and you take their livelihood with it.

Just my perspective. I want to see Bill's Jeep fixed and back to him.
I'd want my Jeep too.
If I went to buy a Jeep today and they had just the right one BUT I couldn't buy it because it was missing a DooDad..... I wouldn't be happy.
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Old 03-16-2018, 12:31 PM
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New TIPM went in this morning.
Service Manager pulled all the fuses from my lights/radios, brought the Jeep to me proudly, and said, "looky; it's working!" And he raised & lowered the windows.
And I said, "yup. But it only starts to do it's thing when you release the e-brake and put it in gear." Which I did and the windows didn't work.

So I went over all of the recent services they had done on the Jeep with him. I already had with the Service Advisor and Tech and with my CSRs. But it was new to him. And he thinks he knows what happened (pinched a wire when they replaced the e-brake).
And I made sure to point out that I had been suggesting that as a starting point all along...

Anyhow, I'm taking a few weeks off and I'll bring it back in April.
I need to go for a drive and fall in love again.
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Old 03-16-2018, 12:33 PM   #45
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New TIPM went in this morning.
Service Manager pulled all the fuses from my lights/radios, brought the Jeep to me proudly, and said, "looky; it's working!" And he raised & lowered the windows.
And I said, "yup. But it only starts to do it's thing when you release the e-brake and put it in gear." Which I did and the windows didn't work.

So I went over all of the recent services they had done on the Jeep with him. I already had with the Service Advisor and Tech and with my CSRs. But it was new to him. And he thinks he knows what happened (pinched a wire when they replaced the e-brake).
And I made sure to point out that I had been suggesting that as a starting point all along...

Anyhow, I'm taking a few weeks off and I'll bring it back in April.
I need to go for a drive and fall in love again.
Roll down the windows and get some fresh air!
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Old 03-16-2018, 12:45 PM   #46
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New TIPM went in this morning.
Service Manager pulled all the fuses from my lights/radios, brought the Jeep to me proudly, and said, "looky; it's working!" And he raised & lowered the windows.
And I said, "yup. But it only starts to do it's thing when you release the e-brake and put it in gear." Which I did and the windows didn't work.

So I went over all of the recent services they had done on the Jeep with him. I already had with the Service Advisor and Tech and with my CSRs. But it was new to him. And he thinks he knows what happened (pinched a wire when they replaced the e-brake).
And I made sure to point out that I had been suggesting that as a starting point all along...

Anyhow, I'm taking a few weeks off and I'll bring it back in April.
I need to go for a drive and fall in love again.
Sorry Bill. Was hoping your post was some Friday magic but I guess not.

Like you said, Go for a ride and let her make up with you....
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Old 03-16-2018, 01:14 PM
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Roll down the windows and get some fresh air!
I do. That's the problem. They go down but not back up again.
Which isn't so much of a problem at first glance. But I use two-way radios a lot and that doesn't go well with the windows down. Plus the phone calls to my Sweetie, Mom, Brother.

It's Friday though.
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Old 03-16-2018, 02:59 PM   #48
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I do. That's the problem. They go down but not back up again.
Which isn't so much of a problem at first glance. But I use two-way radios a lot and that doesn't go well with the windows down. Plus the phone calls to my Sweetie, Mom, Brother.

It's Friday though.
Yeah I was just teasing you, what you're going through sounds awful. Electrical gremlins always seem to be the hardest to troubleshoot.
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Old 03-16-2018, 06:12 PM   #49
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Hey Bill, so sorry that didn't work out! Was hoping you'd be back in a perfect Jeep today.

Since I know you, Bill, I know you won't think I'm piling on here -- just "raising awareness" as the kids say today. But threads like this make me so glad I have wind-up windows, manual doors and mirrors, manual trans, bottom-o-the-line radio (130), and basically as few electronical doodads as a vehicle can have and still be street legal for sale today. (Heck, I'd be happier without TPMS, since the ONLY time it ever goes off is every time I go off-roading).

In no way do I think the lack of all those goodies makes me immune to system failure of some sort -- this is an FCA product after all. But every one I don't have is one that can't break.

Here's to hoping it serves you well for the next three weeks and magically corrects itself, never to falter again!
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Old 03-16-2018, 06:42 PM   #50
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New TIPM went in this morning.
Service Manager pulled all the fuses from my lights/radios, brought the Jeep to me proudly, and said, "looky; it's working!" And he raised & lowered the windows.
And I said, "yup. But it only starts to do it's thing when you release the e-brake and put it in gear." Which I did and the windows didn't work.

So I went over all of the recent services they had done on the Jeep with him. I already had with the Service Advisor and Tech and with my CSRs. But it was new to him. And he thinks he knows what happened (pinched a wire when they replaced the e-brake).
And I made sure to point out that I had been suggesting that as a starting point all along...

Anyhow, I'm taking a few weeks off and I'll bring it back in April.
I need to go for a drive and fall in love again.
I might be mixed up as there are a couple of hilldwellers but I thought you were the head light guy. if so why not pull the center console and check of the pinched wire? I had messing with electrical stuff but I would have that console off and be looking for the problem.
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Old 03-17-2018, 01:25 AM   #51
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I've seen new vehicles being delivered to dealers, and the first thing they do is go over each one coming off the truck, marking the places where they have to pull a dent, paint a scuffed area, windshield, body panels, etc. Happens all the time. They most definitely sell those as new cars. Even high end ones. Only way you'd know for sure is to be there when the truck shows up.
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Old 03-17-2018, 05:11 AM   #52
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Damn Bill you are certainly going thru the ringer on this fix. On the bright side i will say thanks for starting this thread. I read thru your problem and then gleaned both ethical and moral advice about part swapping. Its funny how Jeep people like to turn off the main road sometimes!
I am not very surprised that we have not heard from our local Wrangler Jeep Cares person here. It seems that this one is going a little deeper than she can advise on over a forum post.
I will say that being a gray haired vehicle owner I like to think that the best person is always working on my vehicle when its past my ability to fix it. Electrical gremlins certainly fits that description. I have learned that isnt the case anymore in the world. Not exactly sure why but maybe because there is so much technical/electrical/canbus on and on B.S. on our rigs that no one person can be a specialist. If it doesnt fall into whats written in a tecs algorithm then they vapor lock.
I am glad you have your Jeep back for now and hope you get that figured out. I am wondering if your Jeep is the only one in the world that has had this issue? Spring is near, new beginning! Good Luck.
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Old 03-17-2018, 07:40 AM
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Hey Bill, so sorry that didn't work out! Was hoping you'd be back in a perfect Jeep today.

Since I know you, Bill, I know you won't think I'm piling on here -- just "raising awareness" as the kids say today. But threads like this make me so glad I have wind-up windows, manual doors and mirrors, manual trans, bottom-o-the-line radio (130), and basically as few electronical doodads as a vehicle can have and still be street legal for sale today. (Heck, I'd be happier without TPMS, since the ONLY time it ever goes off is every time I go off-roading).

In no way do I think the lack of all those goodies makes me immune to system failure of some sort -- this is an FCA product after all. But every one I don't have is one that can't break.

Here's to hoping it serves you well for the next three weeks and magically corrects itself, never to falter again!
I'm of the same mind there ------ my wife insisted on the power windows.


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I might be mixed up as there are a couple of hilldwellers but I thought you were the head light guy. if so why not pull the center console and check of the pinched wire? I had messing with electrical stuff but I would have that console off and be looking for the problem.
Well, that's me, the Headlight Nazi (I was actually called that. By a friend too...).
But there are things that I won't pull apart as long as the warranty is order. Especially when it's electrical and not always easy to reproduce.


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Damn Bill you are certainly going thru the ringer on this fix. On the bright side i will say thanks for starting this thread. I read thru your problem and then gleaned both ethical and moral advice about part swapping. Its funny how Jeep people like to turn off the main road sometimes!
I am not very surprised that we have not heard from our local Wrangler Jeep Cares person here. It seems that this one is going a little deeper than she can advise on over a forum post.
I will say that being a gray haired vehicle owner I like to think that the best person is always working on my vehicle when its past my ability to fix it. Electrical gremlins certainly fits that description. I have learned that isnt the case anymore in the world. Not exactly sure why but maybe because there is so much technical/electrical/canbus on and on B.S. on our rigs that no one person can be a specialist. If it doesnt fall into whats written in a tecs algorithm then they vapor lock.
I am glad you have your Jeep back for now and hope you get that figured out. I am wondering if your Jeep is the only one in the world that has had this issue? Spring is near, new beginning! Good Luck.
I pinged JeepCares a few weeks ago regarding the JL:
https://www.wranglerforum.com/f714/ta...s-2217705.html
Tall people can't drive the JL. Did everyone know that? I "tried on" a JL Rubicon yesterday to see if they had different dimensions but it's the same. I hit my head on the rollbar no matter how I tweak the seat. And they're nice seats in the Rubi.
They have to move the rollbar.

I had a good long talk about that with the people at the dealership. About the degree of oops that it takes to not have a tall person provide input. After all, isn't the larger-than-ordinary demographic the one most associated with Jeeps? Don't we already have a bit of a stigma going on with the JK about it being a "Soccer Mom Jeep"? Think of what this will do to the JL reputation when it becomes widespread knowledge that you have to be shorter than 6'2" to even think about buying one. Soccer Mom Jeep indeed.
JeepCares didn't reply to my ping. I really was looking forward to a diesel JL in the future. Guess I'll just have put a 2.8L Cummins in a JK.

I had a long talk with the Service Manager this time, Ed. A few weeks too late but he listened. The engineer in him shined through and it's now a personal challenge for him. Like Captain Ahab and that white whale.
Captain Ed likes this.

__________________
Gone camping,
Bill

"Don't it make ya wanna holla'? Don't it make ya wanna pray?
People, don't it make ya wonder what's he gonna say today?"
-- Eric Bibb
#blackwheelsmatter
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