Geometry Correction Bracket vs Adjustable Control Arm Lifts - Jeep Wrangler Forum
Jeep Wrangler Forum

Go Back   Jeep Wrangler Forum > JK Jeep Wrangler Forum > JK General Discussion Forum

Join Wrangler Forum Today


Like Tree5Likes
  • 1 Post By JTPhoto JK
  • 2 Post By GuzziMoto
  • 1 Post By 4wheelin
  • 1 Post By GuzziMoto
Reply
 
Thread Tools

Please support our sponsors and let them know you heard about them on WranglerForum.com
Old 09-09-2019, 12:44 PM
Thread Starter
  #1
Jeeper
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Posts: 19
Geometry Correction Bracket vs Adjustable Control Arm Lifts

First of all, I've done some searching through lots of threads and found bits of info but not a real discussion about geometry correction brackets vs adjustable control arms in higher-end lift kits.

The last lift I installed was 2-2.5" Old Man Emu on a CRD Liberty w ARB bumper, winch, etc so control arms and geometry weren't at issue. Want to raise the front a bit from the bumper and winch weight? Add a few large conduit nuts in the strut assy, LOL!!! The JK is a different beast...

After lots of reading and deciding not to cheap-out, I'm deciding between the AEV 3.5" Dualsport SC, Metalcloak True Dual Rate Kit with Fox shocks, and Terraflex Sport ST3. There are no rocks to climb in Florida so max flex and so forth isn't the prime directive but I do flog my Unlimited Sport up and down the highway to kids' schools, vacation home, etc...

AEV makes a good case for the brackets here http://https://www.aev-conversions.c...t/#cambolt-kit

An experienced guide and trekker I bought a Congo rack from recommends AEV for several reasons, the above among them, but also because it's easy to pack along or find a stock lower control arm if you damage one, less so with aftermarket, and they are cheap to replace when worn out, CL is full of stock suspension parts for next to nothing.

The Metalcloak and Terraflex control arm approach also makes sense, less likely to break them and they claim better than stock suspension highway performance courtesy of fine tuning over the stock 'gooder'nough' design.

These are all within a few $100 of one another, price isn't the issue. What are the pros and cons with each approach? How do the rest of these lifts stack up against one another? Thanks for the input...

abh3 is offline   Quote
Old 09-09-2019, 02:09 PM   #2
Jeeper
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Clear Spring, Md
Posts: 3,340
Unless you really need beefier adjustable control arms I would recommend the brackets. For most people I think the brackets are the better choice, as they improve the ride beyond what the control arms can do. But either option works. If you need every last bit of ground clearance, the brackets do pay a small price there. But it is a very small price with much larger gains in ride quality.
The stock arms may not deliver the flex that many aftermarket arms can deliver, but I think the difference there is pretty small. Most people, especially with a 2.5" lift, aren't going to notice a difference there.
But aftermarket arms can look awfully cool. I have TF Alpine arms. Pure beef. I plan on adding the brackets down the road to improve the ride quality, though.

GuzziMoto is offline   Quote
Old 09-09-2019, 03:02 PM   #3
Jeeper
 
CommandoSandwich's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2019
Location: Montana
Posts: 115
Metalcloak Game Changer is in a different class than AEV and Teraflex.

I will put my eight adjustable control arm setup up against any lesser "lift". It is a complete suspension and all components work very well together. It drives so much better than stock. It corners faster than a Jeep should be able to. It has freaky flex. It takes some time to dial everything in. Don't take it to a shop and settle on their first set up. I have access to a lift and spent hours tweaking. Multiple sessions on the lift. Once there it's impressive. To beat MC GC offroad performance you pretty much have to step up to coilovers.

If the budget is there and you are looking for performance buy the MC Game Changer. Spend the time dialing it in. You will not regret it. If you reach the point that you are looking for every last 1/8" of flex, call MC, they will help you with custom bump stops top and bottom. If you get serious you can run 38's on MC 2.5" with flat fenders. Very few people actually utilize the MC 3.5" suspension. a 3.5" MC GC on 40's is a beast to be reckoned with.

I would go to aftermarket drive shafts with a MC GC. It does flex that much.

MC's lift height is also determined with 700 pounds of added armor. Most lifts will settle below advertised height when you start adding weight. If your Jeep is even halfway light you will get over 4" out of a 3.5" MC GC.

MC's 2.5" will outperform most 3.5" setups you meet on the trail. It will sneak up on people and hurt their feelings.

If you're looking for "the look", I would go with AEV. Their correction brackets do drive very well. You can get the height with AEV for much less than a MC GC
__________________


Be Jeep or be ain't
CommandoSandwich is online now   Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 09-09-2019, 05:31 PM   #4
Jeeper
 
HKLover's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2017
Posts: 463
I have the Metalcloak 2.5" Gamechanger lift with all 8 adjustable control arms. It started out as the Overland Elite kit with geometry correction brackets.

I can tell you that when I went from the geo brackets to the adj. control arms there was a very big difference in ride quality and handling. All for the positive. If I ever buy another Jeep and decide to do a lift I'm going straight for the adj. arms and skipping the geo brackets.
__________________
2017 JKUR Hard Rock Dark Granite Crystal, Maximus-3 Stinger, Spare Tire Carrier, Winch Plate, D-Rings w/Hi-Lift Jack Points, Metalcloak Undercloak, Exo-skin, Rockers w/Flip Step, 2.5" Gamechanger Lift w/Rocksport Shocks and a butt load of other stuff.....
HKLover is offline   Quote
Old 09-09-2019, 06:16 PM
Thread Starter
  #5
Jeeper
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Posts: 19
I'm terribly sorry, I mean the MC True Dual Rate Kit with Fox shocks, the Game Changer is well beyond the AEV and Terraflex lifts I'm considering, my bad!
abh3 is offline   Quote
Old 09-09-2019, 06:19 PM   #6
Jeeper
 
JTPhoto JK's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Thunder Bay ON Canada
Posts: 4,543
Standard length Adjustable control arms do not correct the geometry they only correct caster and pinion angle. A long arm kit will do more to correct geometry then standard arms but still a different effect then geo brackets.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
jdinny likes this.
__________________
Jeff _(OIIIO)_

2018 Rhino Rubicon 35s for now.

08 Black and Khaki JK Sahara Unlimited (GONE) My BRUTUS BUILD
JTPhoto JK is offline   Quote
Old 09-11-2019, 08:29 AM   #7
Jeeper
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Clear Spring, Md
Posts: 3,340
What he said....
While adjustable arms are nice, and some arms have joints that are capable of more flex, adjustable arms do not correct the geometry of the arms. They do allow you to adjust caster and pinion angle as a set. But they do not fix the geometry of the arms, and that geometry gets messed up as you lift. The brackets flatten out the angle of the control arms, which allows them to do their job better.
Personally, I think having both is the best answer. When I originally picked which way to go, I picked adjustable arms. Now I plan on adding the brackets.
JTPhoto JK and jdinny like this.
GuzziMoto is offline   Quote
Old 09-11-2019, 04:34 PM   #8
Supporting Member

5-Year WF Supporting Member
WF Supporting Member
 
4wheelin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Westminster, MD
Posts: 619
I’ve been researching this subject (replace lower arms versus geometry brackets) and decided on the brackets. Just got them yesterday, and plan on installing soon.
I bought the Rancho geometry brackets from Quadratec. $149
https://www.quadratec.com/p/rancho/g...r-unlimited-jk
Pressurized likes this.
__________________
2017 JKU Sahara Gobi, 275/70/18 Goodyear Duratracs, Mammoth Leveling kit.
One day, you will be just a memory for some people. Do your best to be the good one.
4wheelin is offline   Quote
Old 09-12-2019, 10:29 AM   #9
Jeeper
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 212
I went from the Mopar 2" with AEV geo brackets to MC True Dual Rate 2.5" lift on my 16-JKU Rubicon.

I also have lower TF Alpine Arms as the MC kit came with the front upper arms. I gained about 3.5" of lift from the kit, and I thought my Jeep was heavy.

I didn't have the geo brackets on long enough to really know the difference between them or the TF Alpine arms. My Jeep drives great, but I wish I didn't have the "deadspot" in the steering. Not sure if geo brackets would fix that or not.

Besides the "deadspot" I love the lift and glad I went this way. Knowing that at some point if I want to I can upgrade the rest of the kit to all 8 arms.

The MC lift is top notch and blows away my old Mopar lift. I only bought the Mopar lift cause it was a steal of deal I got on it and came with the front driveshaft.

I do wonder though, can you have both adjustable lower arms and geo brackets?

Ken~
kmusk01 is offline   Quote
Old 09-12-2019, 10:51 AM   #10
Jeeper
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: SoCal...1.5 years to go then it's AZ or bust
Posts: 18
^^ Yes you can Ken and many do; I am among them. I'm running 2.5" MC True Dual Rate with all 8 adjustable CAs, '07 JKU. Had no complaints and was happy with the lift and ride. Got a wild hair and wondered what it would do to have brackets as well. Installed the Rancho brackets and felt I stepped up another notch. Not worried about reduced gc; it is minimal and won't affect how I use my Jeep. They will be staying on for the foreseeable future.

Not sure about your "dead spot" and what is causing it. Doubt brackets will help that but I've been in error a time or two before.
19E60 is offline   Quote
Old 09-12-2019, 11:00 AM   #11
Jeeper
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Clear Spring, Md
Posts: 3,340
Quote:
Originally Posted by kmusk01 View Post
I went from the Mopar 2" with AEV geo brackets to MC True Dual Rate 2.5" lift on my 16-JKU Rubicon.

I also have lower TF Alpine Arms as the MC kit came with the front upper arms. I gained about 3.5" of lift from the kit, and I thought my Jeep was heavy.

I didn't have the geo brackets on long enough to really know the difference between them or the TF Alpine arms. My Jeep drives great, but I wish I didn't have the "deadspot" in the steering. Not sure if geo brackets would fix that or not.

Besides the "deadspot" I love the lift and glad I went this way. Knowing that at some point if I want to I can upgrade the rest of the kit to all 8 arms.

The MC lift is top notch and blows away my old Mopar lift. I only bought the Mopar lift cause it was a steal of deal I got on it and came with the front driveshaft.

I do wonder though, can you have both adjustable lower arms and geo brackets?

Ken~
Have your Jeep put on an alignment rack and measured. You may find you have too much caster. If so, the adjustable arms can be used to dial it back and reduce the "dead spot" in the steering.
You don't know unless you try.
As to using the brackets and arms, as long as the arms you have are capable of being adjusted to the same lengths as stock arms there is no reason why you could not run both adjustable arms and brackets. That is what I plan on doing down the road. I think that would give you the best of both worlds. But the key is having adjustable arms that are capable of being adjusted as short as the stock arms. If they can't adjust to that length you may not have good results with the combo.
I have heard that some think you can't, someone even said that AEV told them you can't. That is just stupid. The brackets don't know if the arms are adjustable or not. And if the arms are adjusted to the same length as the stock arms the brackets would never know the difference. And from there you could either use the adjustableness of the arms to tweak caster or pinion angle, or simply take advantage of any increase in flexibility or strength that your adjustable arms may offer.
JTPhoto JK likes this.
GuzziMoto is offline   Quote
Old 09-12-2019, 11:59 AM   #12
Jeeper
 
JTPhoto JK's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Thunder Bay ON Canada
Posts: 4,543
Geometry Correction Bracket vs Adjustable Control Arm Lifts

Anyone not knowing what Geo brackets actually do, read this. Direct from AEVs website.

“AEV’s Front Control Arm Drop Brackets pack a lot of suspension performance improvements into a small and affordable package. These drop brackets will improve front impact ride quality (expansion joints, ledges), increase anti-dive for improved braking performance, decrease the operating angle range of the front driveshaft, and eliminate the need for adjustable control arms or cam bolts for caster correction. AEV Front Control Arm Drop Brackets are included in all AEV 3.5″/4.5″ DualSport suspensions, but can also be added to AEV’s 2.5″ DualSport suspension as well as other manufacturer’s suspensions. See Tech Specs for more details.

Key Benefits:

– Improve front impact ride quality (expansion joints, ledges) – By reducing the operating angle of the front control arms, the suspension is allowed to work in a more natural state. This means that when hitting a bump, the force applied to the control arms is directed up into the springs instead of back directly into the frame. In effect an AEV 3.5″ lifted JK “thinks” its lifted only 1.25″.
– Change the instant center to increase Anti-Dive for improved braking performance – By increasing the anti-dive geometry of the suspension, you’ll notice the front of the vehicle will barely drop under hard braking when the control arm brackets are used. By increasing force on the front wheels, traction is increased for better straight line braking and by reducing the shifting weight and inertia under braking in curves, handling is greatly improved.
– Decrease the operating angle range of the front driveshaft – This one is often overlooked. Aftermarket double cardan joints do not have the torque rating (1850lb/ft for t a 1310 double cardan, 2150 lb/ft for the OE CV Joint) and they can’t run as smoothly so its advantageous for most JK use to keep the stock CV units. The Front Control Arm Brackets rotate the pinion up as the axle drops to eliminate torn boots on the CV for long life with a lifted application.
– Eliminate the need for adjustable control arms or cam bolts for caster correction – We’ve been touting the benefits of using the stock control arms for a long time because of the pre-loaded rubber OE Bushings that the factory uses, and because that quality has yet to be rivaled in any aftermarket bushing. These new brackets allow for the proper caster ranges to be achieved.
Please note: Adjustable Control Arms are not a replacement for drop brackets – Its often misunderstood that higher priced adjustable control arms have the same effect as AEV’s control arm brackets and that the brackets are just a cheaper option than providing adjustable control arms. Nothing could be farther from the truth, both components do separate and different things and both have their place under a Jeep. Both products can adjust the castor angle which is where much of the confusion stems from.

AEV’s drop brackets change four distinct parameters:

– Lowers arm angle for ride quality.
– Lowers the instant center for better braking (antidive).
– Decreases operating angle of the driveshaft by reducing the range of travel.
– Corrects caster angles.
Adjustable control arms can certainly allow the proper caster angle to be dialed in, however they are incapable of all the other parameter changes, and in fact make the instant center, ride quality and driveshaft angles all worse than stock. Adjustable control arms can do some things that the drop brackets can not:

– Move the axle position forward or aft which may be required with aftermarket HD axles.
– Change the pinion angles for aftermarket Cardan or Double Cardan driveshafts.
– Correct minor deviations in suspension geometry after an accident with mild frame damage.


The Geo brackets work so well in fact they now make them for the JL and JT as well.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
__________________
Jeff _(OIIIO)_

2018 Rhino Rubicon 35s for now.

08 Black and Khaki JK Sahara Unlimited (GONE) My BRUTUS BUILD
JTPhoto JK is offline   Quote
Old 09-12-2019, 02:09 PM   #13
Jeeper
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 212
Not to sway off topic from original poster, but right after the lift was put on a few months back I went right to dealer to get the alignment done as I knew my toe was off.

Attached is my current alignment.

The "deadspot" as I call it is when the wheel is centered, but I can turn a few degrees left/right and nothing happens. Everything up front is tight and you can see/feel the pitman to draglink move even in the "deadspot" I always chalked it up to having 35's and adjustable arms. I don't recall having this issues with the geo brackets, but its been years since they have been on.

Ken~
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	Jeep-alignment.jpg
Views:	8
Size:	196.2 KB
ID:	4174653  
kmusk01 is offline   Quote
Old 09-13-2019, 06:07 PM   #14
Supporting Member

5-Year WF Supporting Member
WF Supporting Member
 
4wheelin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Westminster, MD
Posts: 619
Geometry Brackets installed

Before:


After:



Parts, etc.. all came as needed. Took me some time wrenching on my own, about 2.5 hours after the morning coffee kicked in.

https://www.quadratec.com/p/rancho/g...r-unlimited-jk

Decent product. Haven't taken it for a drive yet. Too many other chores to get done (see brake post in another thread "What are you expecting in the mail").

I'm expecting a better ride, with less impact from pot holes on the highway. I'm heading to the farm in WV next weekend, so a long highway ride will show just how good these changes are. I'm also going offroading next month, so with the lift, geometry bracket, disconnects for front sway bar, I expect a nice time!

__________________
2017 JKU Sahara Gobi, 275/70/18 Goodyear Duratracs, Mammoth Leveling kit.
One day, you will be just a memory for some people. Do your best to be the good one.
4wheelin is offline   Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off






All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:53 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.1
User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging v3.1.0 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
vBulletin Security provided by vBSecurity v2.2.2 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

Jeep®, Wrangler, Liberty, Wagoneer, Cherokee, and Grand Cherokee are copyrighted and trademarked to Chrysler Motors LLC.
Wranglerforum.com is not in any way associated with the Chrysler Motors LLC