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Old 04-05-2017, 09:15 PM
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Question Linear vs Dual Rate Springs (and Progressive)

I'm still considering my options for a suspension lift kit. I'm going with 35 inch tires.

I am pretty sure that I want to go with the new Falcon 3.3 shocks.

In doing my research between a few of the major companies, particularly Metalcloak, Teraflex, and Rock Krawler, I note that all 3 of them use different technology when it comes to the springs.

Metalcloak uses "true dual rate springs", while Teraflex uses linear (single rate) springs, and Rock Krawler uses progressive springs.

While trying to determine what the advantages and disadvantages are of each, I came across these two videos from Teraflex and Metalcloak, which seem a bit contradictory to each other. So who is right?

My JKU is my daily driver, so having a nice ride on the streets is important to me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V_Qp7L_eTqU
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UiRjoD1rSXU

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Old 04-05-2017, 09:54 PM   #2
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You will probably get polarized opinions and recommendations for each!

From my understanding, the progressive and dual rate springs are more for keeping the coils from coming unseated during extreme articulation. I have the progressive springs, but I don't really think they ride any better than any of the other springs. To me, that is more of a shock issue.

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Old 04-05-2017, 10:01 PM   #3
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Linear vs Dual Rate Springs (and Progressive)

I can tell u my MC 3.5 GC still has the springs in the bucket at full drop.

Their springs and joints sold me. Made sense to me.

Others will see it differently.
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Old 04-06-2017, 03:47 AM   #4
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I don't claim to be an expert but for me it is fairly simple. Shocks and springs work together. it is much harder to design a shock that can control a multi-rate or a progressive spring. But for a single rate spring it is simple.

IMO the name that Metalcloak uses for there spring is a bit confusing. While it is indeed dual rate from a shock point of view it is a single rate, the first rate of the spring is fully compressed at ride height. This again makes shock design simple only really having to deal with the rate of the spring at ride height. But what that first rate does is allow for amazing droop without the need for limit straps, the spring does not come out of its perch.

But in the end I don't think there is truly a right answer in what is better. Any spring/shock combo from any of those companies will be great. But don't pick a shock or pick a spring, pick a shock/spring combo that is designed and tuned for the vehicle going to use. This will almost always give you the best performance.
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Old 04-06-2017, 03:27 PM
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Originally Posted by TerryC6 View Post
I don't claim to be an expert but for me it is fairly simple. Shocks and springs work together. it is much harder to design a shock that can control a multi-rate or a progressive spring. But for a single rate spring it is simple.
So it sounds like you buy the claims made in the Teraflex video that I posted above, correct? And it does make sense to me.

And since shocks and springs work together, is there a benefit to going with the Teraflex Alpine lift kit, since the Falcon shocks were supposedly designed with the Teraflex springs/kit in mind?

Quote:
IMO the name that Metalcloak uses for there spring is a bit confusing. While it is indeed dual rate from a shock point of view it is a single rate, the first rate of the spring is fully compressed at ride height. This again makes shock design simple only really having to deal with the rate of the spring at ride height. But what that first rate does is allow for amazing droop without the need for limit straps, the spring does not come out of its perch.
So would this give the Metalcloak kit more articulation than the Teraflex kit, which needs to use limit straps?

Quote:
But in the end I don't think there is truly a right answer in what is better. Any spring/shock combo from any of those companies will be great. But don't pick a shock or pick a spring, pick a shock/spring combo that is designed and tuned for the vehicle going to use. This will almost always give you the best performance.
Bummer, I was hoping for a black and white definitive answer!

Still not sure which way to go..
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Old 04-06-2017, 04:00 PM   #6
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So it sounds like you buy the claims made in the Teraflex video that I posted above, correct? And it does make sense to me.

And since shocks and springs work together, is there a benefit to going with the Teraflex Alpine lift kit, since the Falcon shocks were supposedly designed with the Teraflex springs/kit in mind?



So would this give the Metalcloak kit more articulation than the Teraflex kit, which needs to use limit straps?



Bummer, I was hoping for a black and white definitive answer!

Still not sure which way to go..
From a standpoint of articulation not much beats Metalcloak if you have the 6-pak shocks installed. With normal shocks installed they are all pretty much the same but with the length of the spring Metalcloak kits not need limit straps.

I'm not sure I agree with Teraflex or not because there is not a single answer to the equation. As far as I am aware there is not a single kit on the market that does everything great. If I was looking for street manners I would probably go AEV. If I was looking a desert running I would get King Coil Overs and a long arm kit. For rock crawling I don't think anything beats Metalcloak and 6-pak shocks (what I have).

Again though I am not really aware of anyone who is unhappy with any of the setups you mentioned. I guess the only point I was trying to get across is when looking at springs buy the shock from the same company. In this way you know the shock is tuned for there spring.

I'm sorry but I spent over a year going though the same thing you are. It's hard to know what the right answer is and if you get it wrong it costs.
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Old 04-06-2017, 06:28 PM
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Originally Posted by TerryC6 View Post
From a standpoint of articulation not much beats Metalcloak if you have the 6-pak shocks installed. With normal shocks installed they are all pretty much the same but with the length of the spring Metalcloak kits not need limit straps.

I'm not sure I agree with Teraflex or not because there is not a single answer to the equation. As far as I am aware there is not a single kit on the market that does everything great. If I was looking for street manners I would probably go AEV. If I was looking a desert running I would get King Coil Overs and a long arm kit. For rock crawling I don't think anything beats Metalcloak and 6-pak shocks (what I have).

Again though I am not really aware of anyone who is unhappy with any of the setups you mentioned. I guess the only point I was trying to get across is when looking at springs buy the shock from the same company. In this way you know the shock is tuned for there spring.

I'm sorry but I spent over a year going though the same thing you are. It's hard to know what the right answer is and if you get it wrong it costs.
Thank Terry, I really appreciate the time that you put into your responses. Even though you say that there really is no right answer, your posts have been very helpful in terms of getting me to understand how these things work!
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Old 04-06-2017, 07:53 PM   #8
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The way I see it, all this dual, triple,cuadruple rate coil springs are all progressive springs, marketed to cater a certain group of enthusiasts. When you get into coil springs specs, most manufacturers will advertise essential info like free length, actual spring rate in inch/lbs and more, It is fairly simple to run linear rates coil springs, because you know how many lbs of weight it takes to compress the spring by one inch, it takes double that weight to compress an extra inch and so forth.

For progressive springs, life is more complicated because you have a soft rate in the shorter coil, that could be linear or variable,and a 2nd rate, linear or variable on the longer coil wound.
They're typically harsher once you have defeated the max weight on the shorter coil, the more weight, the more resistance from the longer one.

Progressive springs can typically extend longer, but it also takes more shock to tame them, depending on the spring rate you reach, things like weight and dynamic load can affect the rate of the spring.

Linear springs are more predictable, as their spring rate is fixed.

You only need enough spring tension to support the weight of your vehicle and mods, given an xx length in the coil, if you add more spring pressure, things get harsh, then you get into things like going with semi flat tires at 25psi to mask a harsh ride in DD mode, though for sure that some tires can actually ride harsh making the problem worse, or you get into adding 3/4 spacers to regain lift to fix sagged ones.

Only a few vendors are actually in business producing coil springs, and only a few of the ones marketing dual or triple or quadruple springs make their coils, the ones that do not, should at least know the specs, as in theory they pass those specs to the coil manufacturers making the coils for them, so you can always call and learn more about your coils springs if you wanted either way.

Knowing what you have, can help you plan for weight and expected height, and help you select better springs that can give you a better ride combined with the height you want/need.

Get to know your springs if you can and enjoy.

Have fun.
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Old 05-15-2019, 11:01 PM   #9
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From a standpoint of articulation not much beats Metalcloak if you have the 6-pak shocks installed. With normal shocks installed they are all pretty much the same but with the length of the spring Metalcloak kits not need limit straps.

I'm not sure I agree with Teraflex or not because there is not a single answer to the equation. As far as I am aware there is not a single kit on the market that does everything great. If I was looking for street manners I would probably go AEV. If I was looking a desert running I would get King Coil Overs and a long arm kit. For rock crawling I don't think anything beats Metalcloak and 6-pak shocks (what I have).

Again though I am not really aware of anyone who is unhappy with any of the setups you mentioned. I guess the only point I was trying to get across is when looking at springs buy the shock from the same company. In this way you know the shock is tuned for there spring.

I'm sorry but I spent over a year going though the same thing you are. It's hard to know what the right answer is and if you get it wrong it costs.
I have th MC 2.5 springs and 2.1 falcons. Looking at the adjustable kings. Tereflex and I haven’t spoke to king yet, says single rate springs are easier and better to match the shocks to.

You saying MC springs are single rate even though labeled dual rate, so do you think king can match shocks as good as matching a labeled single rate spring like 2 mopar s, with king adjustables as to matching the kings to my MC dual rate 2.5 springs.

For now, I have to add bumpstop or put back retainers in, until I get res adjustables at some point.
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Old 05-16-2019, 01:15 AM   #10
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I have th MC 2.5 springs and 2.1 falcons. Looking at the adjustable kings. Tereflex and I haven’t spoke to king yet, says single rate springs are easier and better to match the shocks to.

You saying MC springs are single rate even though labeled dual rate, so do you think king can match shocks as good as matching a labeled single rate spring like 2 mopar s, with king adjustables as to matching the kings to my MC dual rate 2.5 springs.

For now, I have to add bumpstop or put back retainers in, until I get res adjustables at some point.
You are correct that a single rate spring is easier to match a shock to. Most of the time when we talk about dual rate or progressive springs the more they are compressed the stiffer they get. MC's first rate is fully compressed at ride height basically giving you a single rate spring under normal conditions. This means the the only time it comes into play is when you have unloaded the second rate completely, i.e. approaching full articulation.

I have no doubt that Kings can be valued for the MC springs. I almost went that way instead of running 6Paks. I would suggest you give MC a call as I am sure it has been done many times.
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Old 05-16-2019, 05:40 AM   #11
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I just took off my Teraflex 2.5 coils that had sagged so bad I was ramming the bumpstops on small changes in the road. I will say I had them on for 5 years and for the first couple they were OK matched with Rancho shocks. In fairness I added a ton of weight as its a fully dressed J/K. The springs lost over 2 inches in the rear.
I have gone with Metalcloak 2.5 dual rates and so far they are excellent BUT they are brand new and I have not even wheeled them yet. I regained all lost lift.
So for me I will say that TF is a decent company and are pretty responsive to the customer. Metalcloak is also very responsive as I made 2 calls during my install and got a human with the exact info I needed within 4 rings.
I'll let you know after this summer of wheeling. Good Luck.
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Old 05-16-2019, 10:49 AM   #12
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I just took off my Teraflex 2.5 coils that had sagged so bad I was ramming the bumpstops on small changes in the road. I will say I had them on for 5 years and for the first couple they were OK matched with Rancho shocks. In fairness I added a ton of weight as its a fully dressed J/K. The springs lost over 2 inches in the rear.
I have gone with Metalcloak 2.5 dual rates and so far they are excellent BUT they are brand new and I have not even wheeled them yet. I regained all lost lift.
So for me I will say that TF is a decent company and are pretty responsive to the customer. Metalcloak is also very responsive as I made 2 calls during my install and got a human with the exact info I needed within 4 rings.
I'll let you know after this summer of wheeling. Good Luck.
3 years in on my MC springs and I am still over 2.5 inches and my rig is a fat pig. Even when I have hit 6000 lbs plus I still have 2.5 inches of lift and this is a 2 door.
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Old 05-16-2019, 11:55 PM   #13
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You are correct that a single rate spring is easier to match a shock to. Most of the time when we talk about dual rate or progressive springs the more they are compressed the stiffer they get. MC's first rate is fully compressed at ride height basically giving you a single rate spring under normal conditions. This means the the only time it comes into play is when you have unloaded the second rate completely, i.e. approaching full articulation.

I have no doubt that Kings can be valued for the MC springs. I almost went that way instead of running 6Paks. I would suggest you give MC a call as I am sure it has been done many times.
Yea, I have been researching a little on kings, after not getting the right size falcons. I like the 2.1 falcons they are working nice. When I do go to resa djustables I want custom valving to match springs.

I prob work with filthy motor sports, wouldn’t they make all the custom specs to valve with king for me.

How important much a difference you think, going with filthy, then just having king do it on my own.

They factor in lots of things, and have done it with 2 door jk, so they have experience. I have none for what shim stacks to get.

I like what your saying about Mc springs basically being single rate, other then when going fast on big bumps where articulation would be. Really only real slow articulation activities would it not be ideal for valved shock. Nice, that’s good.

2.1 falcons are nice right now though, when I get shocks next though res adjustables.
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Old 05-17-2019, 01:58 AM   #14
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Yea, I have been researching a little on kings, after not getting the right size falcons. I like the 2.1 falcons they are working nice. When I do go to resa djustables I want custom valving to match springs.

I prob work with filthy motor sports, wouldn’t they make all the custom specs to valve with king for me.

How important much a difference you think, going with filthy, then just having king do it on my own.

They factor in lots of things, and have done it with 2 door jk, so they have experience. I have none for what shim stacks to get.

I like what your saying about Mc springs basically being single rate, other then when going fast on big bumps where articulation would be. Really only real slow articulation activities would it not be ideal for valved shock. Nice, that’s good.

2.1 falcons are nice right now though, when I get shocks next though res adjustables.
I would use Filthy Motorsports also if I was to go Kings, seems like they know there stuff and I like the way they ask a ton of question on exactly how the vehicle is used and valve it accordingly.

The reason I went with 6Paks in the end is I wanted max articulation and nothing beats them. If I was interested in go fast I would be on Kings though.
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Old 05-17-2019, 09:46 AM   #15
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I would use Filthy Motorsports also if I was to go Kings, seems like they know there stuff and I like the way they ask a ton of question on exactly how the vehicle is used and valve it accordingly.

The reason I went with 6Paks in the end is I wanted max articulation and nothing beats them. If I was interested in go fast I would be on Kings though.
Yea hearing the smart guys say go with filthy motor sports when doing that makes me fell more certain.

I have to add more bumpstops for now and like to do retainers for back springs, until I can buy res adjustables, prob Kings.

Good to know that MC prints would be good. I ll ask king and filthy what springs they think work well with Kong’s to, just to see what they think.

Not having to buy springs helps money costs.
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Old 05-17-2019, 10:20 AM   #16
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I love the MC dual rate springs but I don’t recommend that you just throw them in without planning to do something about the rear spring perch. If the perch is not cut off of the axle and welded back on in the correct position (rotated forward on the axle due to the new angle created by the lift once you adjust your pinion) then they end up angled at the point where the rate transition happens in the spring and at worst can hit the track bar in the rear. At best they will not function as a dual rate spring because of the angle and the ride will suffer.


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Old 05-17-2019, 02:56 PM   #17
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I love the MC dual rate springs but I don’t recommend that you just throw them in without planning to do something about the rear spring perch. If the perch is not cut off of the axle and welded back on in the correct position (rotated forward on the axle due to the new angle created by the lift once you adjust your pinion) then they end up angled at the point where the rate transition happens in the spring and at worst can hit the track bar in the rear. At best they will not function as a dual rate spring because of the angle and the ride will suffer.


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MC makes a alignment correction/retainer bracket and in most cases it will fix any spring bow.

Again the 1st rate does not affect ride at all, at least on the street, this rate is fully compressed at ride height. Even off road it does not really affect ride but it does keep the tire on the ground without applying undo upward force on the vehicle.
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Old 05-17-2019, 04:02 PM   #18
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3 years in on my MC springs and I am still over 2.5 inches and my rig is a fat pig. Even when I have hit 6000 lbs plus I still have 2.5 inches of lift and this is a 2 door.
How are you at 6000 pounds on a two door?! I've got mine loaded up and it just weighed in at 5092.

Edit: The main difference in our builds are in the skids, sport cage and duel battery. So I guess that could be the difference.
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Old 05-17-2019, 07:19 PM   #19
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How are you at 6000 pounds on a two door?! I've got mine loaded up and it just weighed in at 5092.

Edit: The main difference in our builds are in the skids, sport cage and duel battery. So I guess that could be the difference.
This is with both the wife and I in the vehicle, loaded and the trailer hooked up.
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Old 05-17-2019, 07:24 PM   #20
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