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Old 07-15-2019, 10:14 PM   #61
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Tried (in PA) in towns of aggressive enforcement - Fail.
As written (assuming the police post cites it correctly), that is the most vulnerable part of the law. But, sounds like you've already explored that path.

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Old 07-15-2019, 10:26 PM   #62
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As written (assuming the police post cites it correctly), that is the most vulnerable part of the law. But, sounds like you've already explored that path.
Yes. I started this fight in 2005. 14 years was enough, I'll continue to support the effort and hope that somehow/someway it gains traction someday but my term leading the battle has sunset.

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Old 07-15-2019, 10:54 PM   #63
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How things have changed. Used to fly down the freeway in a CJ5, 300 HP 327. No top, no doors, no roll bar, no seat belts, family of 4 headed for the Sierras towing a tent trailer. Now I don't even want to take off my doors.
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Old 07-15-2019, 10:58 PM   #64
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How things have changed. Used to fly down the freeway in a CJ5, 300 HP 327. No top, no doors, no roll bar, no seat belts, family of 4 headed for the Sierras towing a tent trailer. Now I don't even want to take off my doors.
Ha! So true. Love my AC.
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Old 07-15-2019, 11:38 PM   #65
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I'm a biker, by the way, just not a nasty, skanky one.
Says you.
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Old 07-15-2019, 11:58 PM   #66
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I can't have doors yet that can pull up beside me at a light?
I drove one of these during AZ bikeweek. It was really fun, reminded me of a really fast go cart. Here in AZ, this is considered a motorcycle, which requires the MC endorsement on drivers license. When they first came out, a few states refused to allow them to be sold due to how to classify them.

Rode a can am spyder too, did not like it.
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Old 07-16-2019, 07:57 AM   #67
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I drove one of these during AZ bikeweek. It was really fun, reminded me of a really fast go cart. Here in AZ, this is considered a motorcycle, which requires the MC endorsement on drivers license. When they first came out, a few states refused to allow them to be sold due to how to classify them.

Rode a can am spyder too, did not like it.
Now comes the irony question.....so can you use one of these to get your endorsement?
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Old 07-16-2019, 08:12 AM   #68
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Wrong.....the door thing is a PA thing....not a federal one...when I drive thru Ohio they can't ticket me for not having a front license plate....I don't need an inspection sticker to drive thru Virginia....and I don't need doors to drive in Pennsylvania....
Front license plate is a different thing. You can't have a front plate if they don't exist... and front plates don't exist for states/vehicles which don't require.


Doors do exist and you are required to have those doors on in PA. If not then you are breaking the law, and just like anyone else are subject to a ticket. Now they MAY give you a break and look the other way if you are from out of State, but that doesn't change the fact that they CAN ticket you.


I'm in Canada and drive to North Dakota all the time, and they have studded tire laws which are much stricter than ours. They tend to look the other way when we hit their roads with studded tires, but they have been known to hand out tickets if you give them a reason to pull you over.


Want to test it? Take an out of state jeep with no doors on and call a PA cop a fat pig while driving by
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Old 07-16-2019, 08:42 AM   #69
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Sounds like everyone needs to do a lot of research before they start armchair quarterbacking this law.

1) It's all automobiles that drive in PA. Where your tags are from makes no difference. They will ticket you (or warn you most of the time.)

2) The law is an antique, and was originally passed because of people welding their doors shut for drag racing or moonshij8ng or something. So the law requires functioning doors, how they were delivered from the factory. They must be there, the must have hinges, they must open and close.

3) The law is currently being looked into to make exception for vehicles who's doors are designed to be removed. (read: Wranglers and side by sides.)

4) That Polaris Slingshot is classified as a motorcycle, and not subject to the same laws. Also, it didn't come with doors, so it's not required to have them.
I can address numbers 1 and 3.
Number 1, no. They can't write me a ticket for not having doors if my Jeep is not registered in PA. My Jeep needs to meet MD standards to be legally registered. Once legally registered I can operate it on PA roads, or roads in any other state in the union. I have to follow rules of behavior where ever I am but the vehicle standards I have to meet are only the standards of the state it is registered in. None of this applies to people who live in a different country. But all states in the USA recognize other state registrations and standards.
Does that mean a police officer can't stop me and write me a ticket? No. Sadly, police officers can do stupid things like that. But the ticket would not stand up in a court of law. As mentioned, it is no different than someone from PA who does not have a license plate on the front of their Jeep (PA does not require front license plates). They can legally drive their Jeep in MD, a state that does require front license plates. And while a cop could be stupid and write them a ticket for not having a front license plate they likely would not because they would know it will never stand up in court.
As to number 3, they are looking into changing the PA law. But it seems to be a massive CF. The proposed change is stupid, and they are still having a hard time getting any traction with it.
That said, I still say that by the letter of the law you are allowed to run with doors removed as long as they were made to be removable by the manufacturer. And JK / JKU doors were made to be removable. It says it has to be "equipped" with doors of the same type as original. It does not say they have to be installed. Equipped and installed are two different words with two different meanings.
But, as mentioned, as someone who lives just across the state line in MD I don't have a dog in this fight but I do support those that do.
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Old 07-16-2019, 09:53 AM   #70
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I drove one of these during AZ bikeweek. It was really fun, reminded me of a really fast go cart. Here in AZ, this is considered a motorcycle, which requires the MC endorsement on drivers license. When they first came out, a few states refused to allow them to be sold due to how to classify them.

Rode a can am spyder too, did not like it.
I realize they are classified as a motor cycle
most likely do to a payoff rather then logic

I only have one question about how its classified.
ow many other cycles have a steering "wheel"?
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Old 07-16-2019, 10:10 AM   #71
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Pa has its Head up its Ass. Kids for cash. The mayor of Scranton just plead guilty to corruption resigned from office. Auditor General just completed an audit Millions of dollars in gas taxes (highest in the Country) road taxes and tolls supposed to go to Road and Bridge REPAIR - Nope. Went to the State Police Pension because most retire with six digit income for life.

What else? Oh yeah - ONLY state in the country you get a ticket for driving a Jeep w/o Doors. ONLY in Pa.

Chicago and D.C. have nothing on Pa ......
No offense but the majority of the people of PA, and similar states, have the state governments they voted for. A powerful, centralized, intrusive, state government is just as bad as a federal one.

Unfortunately, when you create governments like this you dont get to pick and choose when and where they choose to intrude in your lives.
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Old 07-16-2019, 10:17 AM   #72
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No offense but the majority of the people of PA, and similar states, have the state governments they voted for. A powerful, centralized, intrusive, state government is just as bad as a federal one.

Unfortunately, when you create governments like this you don’t get to pick and choose when and where they choose to intrude in your lives.
None taken. I'll be the first one to say (especially) Pa N/E Pa get exactly what they deserve.
It would be irrational for me to say "I'm outta here because boohoo I can't take my doors off". That would be ridiculous.
Fact is, I've lived all over. Came back to Pa because of Family and then got tied up with raising kids and business ventures.
As SOON as those ties are cut I will be out of Pa as fast as my Jeep can go.
Kids are all grown and on their own. Business is still a factor but days are numbered....

I will have a list and research very carefully where we go.... Probably won't get everything on the list but it will be prioritized for sure.
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Old 07-16-2019, 11:39 AM   #73
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I wonder if this may work for OUT OF STATE Jeeps to avoid being ticketed:

1) Write a letter to the local DMV and ask that you have no doors and ask for a response if you are allowed to drive without doors.

2) Hopefully get a positive YES blessing answer letter.

3) Have both letters with you when you drive through Pennsylvania.

4) In case you get pulled over show both letters to the officer.

Showing both letters could establish, that a) you do not have the doors and b) that you have made an effort to inquire about it with your local government and got their blessing.

It might signal a sense of legal support or otherwise gain just enough sympathy to avoid a ticket.
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Old 07-16-2019, 11:50 AM   #74
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What I can not believe is that no PA. lawmakers in the upper echelon of the government drive jeeps and want to go topless. Once the governor or one of his cronies buy a jeep and want to go topless, the law will change. It's exactly the same as 'where there are no pot holes, there are government cronies that live on that road.' Where there are lots of pot holes, nobody of any importance live on that road. Just us PEE-ON'S!!!
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Old 07-16-2019, 11:56 AM   #75
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What say our Jeep loving crowd here about this ........


Seems to me by the wording that if topless its okay ....... either way Im not liking their interpretation cause I drive thru this township daily ....
What is interesting to me, is the Section 4107 which states:

Violation of vehicle equipment standards.--
(1) It is unlawful for any person to sell, offer for sale, lease, install or replace, either separately or as part of the equipment of a vehicle, any item of vehicle equipment affecting the operation of the vehicle which does not comply with this title or regulations promulgated thereunder, ...


So I guess that means all the vendors who sell after market doors, fenders, spacers, etc... are violating the vehicle code. Wonder what would happen if officer friendly showed up at Quadratech and whipped out his ticket book
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Old 07-16-2019, 11:56 AM   #76
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What I can not believe is that no PA. lawmakers in the upper echelon of the government drive jeeps and want to go topless. Once the governor or one of his cronies buy a jeep and want to go topless, the law will change. It's exactly the same as 'where there are no pot holes, there are government cronies that live on that road.' Where there are lots of pot holes, nobody of any importance live on that road. Just us PEE-ON'S!!!
Oddly enough.... the Governor actually drives a Jeep and several of the congressman I have corresponded with also drive Jeeps.

Really adds to the frustration actually....
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Old 07-16-2019, 11:59 AM   #77
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Oddly enough.... the Governor actually drives a Jeep and several of the congressman I have corresponded with also drive Jeeps.

Really adds to the frustration actually....
THAT is very surprising. This incident isn't going to help Pa's fight any..
https://news.yahoo.com/houston-insta...221119634.html
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Old 07-16-2019, 12:07 PM   #78
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THAT is very surprising. This incident isn't going to help Pa's fight any..
https://news.yahoo.com/houston-insta...221119634.html
More of a story about drinking/driving as well as the importance of Wearing a Seat Belt.
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Old 07-16-2019, 12:07 PM   #79
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Facebook posts have zero legal weight. That's their opinion. You need a judge for a legal ruling.

My read of 175.77: If the tops off, you can run without doors.
I have, and have never been stopped.

I am not a lawyer, sometimes I watch them on TV.
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Old 07-16-2019, 12:14 PM   #80
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One more reply and then off to the ignore pile.... It has Never been an issue of 100% enforcement. The PROBLEM is the selective nature of the enforcement.
Example: Someone has a Jeep, has had it and been naked for years.
Goes to visit friends in anyone of dozens of neighboring towns in Pa.
Everybody piles in the Jeep, driver stays DD. Other three have a few driving home naked and "whew red/blue lights" - pulled over and ticketed at least for the doorless condition. Possibly hassled for other issues whatever.... 100+ scenarios that only in Pa is going to result in a stop and a ticket in the range of $150.00 ruined evening perhaps.

Anyway.... 49 states: No problem.

1 state: Pa

Enjoy!
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Old 07-16-2019, 12:17 PM   #81
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THAT is very surprising. This incident isn't going to help Pa's fight any..
https://news.yahoo.com/houston-insta...221119634.html
The doors were in place when that wreck happened. Seat belts? News articles don't say but I'm thinking not.
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Old 07-16-2019, 12:18 PM   #82
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More of a story about drinking/driving as well as the importance of Wearing a Seat Belt.
Agreed but, 'THEY' will turn it around to back their backward reasoning that a topless jeep is not safe....
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Old 07-16-2019, 12:32 PM   #83
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Consider that without doors you or your loved ones can easily lose a limb in case of a rollover.
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Old 07-16-2019, 01:15 PM   #84
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What is interesting to me, is the Section 4107 which states:

Violation of vehicle equipment standards.--
(1) It is unlawful for any person to sell, offer for sale, lease, install or replace, either separately or as part of the equipment of a vehicle, any item of vehicle equipment affecting the operation of the vehicle which does not comply with this title or regulations promulgated thereunder, ...


So I guess that means all the vendors who sell after market doors, fenders, spacers, etc... are violating the vehicle code. Wonder what would happen if officer friendly showed up at Quadratech and whipped out his ticket book
Only if they were selling it in PA for on-road use...
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Old 07-16-2019, 01:31 PM   #85
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Bigger issues

The bigger issue behind the scenes are the LEO and LAW makers that are instituting the practice (whether morally, ethically or constitutional correctly) get paid either way.

A LEO gives you a ticket for no doors.. doesn't matter if it stands in court or not he gets paid to hand it out and than again, overtime pay to show up in court if you choose to fight the ticket. The law makers are getting paid to write the laws and at least some of them are getting paid to represent the court or the ticket in court. That's an uphill battle unless you can get the attention of the governing body.

We can show up as individuals at a reps desk everyday. If we don't have the clout behind us (lawyers, those of blue or industry) we're not going to be heard for more than the few minutes we stand at their desk. And quite frankly those listening would rather deal with our gas then those with the clout that affect their pay or jobs top down.

If we're serious (and I am being from the north east.. and will be living on the PA/DE border in two months..also have lots of family in PA) we call Jeep council.. we set up a Jeep roll call and have everyone meet at the desk with our tops and doors off the day of appointment and show the level of support(votes) we represent. Then and only then will the voice have a reverberation that can not be ignored. I am willing to take a violation to stand up for something that 49 other states don't have to be held hostage too...

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Old 07-16-2019, 02:30 PM   #86
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Agreed but, 'THEY' will turn it around to back their backward reasoning that a topless jeep is not safe....
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Originally Posted by Skullcowboy View Post
The doors were in place when that wreck happened. Seat belts? News articles don't say but I'm thinking not.
For everyone that supports their argument their is one that doesn't...

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Old 07-16-2019, 06:25 PM   #87
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he's not a jeep driver
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Old 07-16-2019, 06:42 PM   #88
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Consider that without doors you or your loved ones can easily lose a limb in case of a rollover.
You can lose a limb doing many things that are fun; that doesn't mean they need to be legislated into oblivion. Shit; you put your life at risk rolling out of bed in the morning...
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Old 07-16-2019, 06:45 PM   #89
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Wouldn't this cover operating topless without doors?

"...unless the vehicle has been manufactured or modified to the extent that there is no roof or side..."
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Old 07-16-2019, 07:48 PM   #90
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Consider that without doors you or your loved ones can easily lose a limb in case of a rollover.
You know that bit of decorative tubing isn't a real roll-cage, right?
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