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Old 08-27-2019, 02:32 PM   #31
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Thank you.
That's exactly my point.
Honestly I wasn't sure what point you were trying to make.

You were all over the place and you didn't offer context (i.e. cars on the road in the snow) in your opening post. Given that this is a Jeeping forum, a lot of people might assume you are talking about trail riding and hill climbing when talking about weight distribution. Even in the context of the OP's explanation of planned use.

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Old 08-27-2019, 02:40 PM   #32
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Easy answer.. Truetrac in the rear

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Old 08-27-2019, 04:00 PM   #33
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If I was doing one axle I would probably do the front. That's where the weight and the best traction is and therefore the most advantage will be gained if locked.




I do a lot of snow and the difference in traction between a front wheel drive vehicle and a rear wheel vehicle in the snow is stunning. Look at it this way.... there is a reason most 2 wheel drive vehicles are front wheel drive.
Upon further reflection, I wanted to comment more.

And I want to make it clear that I'm not attacking you personally. I'm not trying to pick a fight. I'm just adding my perspective.



Your point that, off the showroom floor, a FWD car has better traction than a RWD car is technically accurate. But only because of the location of the engine and transmission. The problem is, everything else about FWD makes it worse for traction. And when you compensate for the weight advantage, you find out quickly how FWD is really pretty limited.

Manufacturers sell FWD cars because it's cheaper to build them and the overall weight advantage of not having to run a driveshaft and axle to the back (i.e. fuel economy based on weight savings). It's not because they have some magical ability with traction on snow and ice. They don't.

I do a lot of snow and ice driving as well. While I'm not in Canada, I got my snow and ice training and experience in the northern Midwest. My parents were farm kids who knew about getting stuck in the middle of nowhere and how to avoid it. I grew up with RWD cars. We always put tubes of sand in the trunk and learned how to drive that way. When it came to FWD cars as I was getting towards the end of high school, I learned quickly that I didn't have to add weight to the car to get good traction. But I also learned quickly that when the steering tires are the ones being driven by the engine, you are a lot more limited when it comes to traction.

Accelerating and turning the same tires at the same time means you have a much lower threshold for traction loss. I actually found that it was much harder to negotiate the snow and ice in FWD than a properly equipped RWD car for one reason. I can have marginal traction with the drive tires but still maintain full steering control in a RWD car. In a FWD car, you start to lose drive traction and you lose steering control at the same time. And that puts you in a ditch a lot faster.



FWD vs RWD aside, when you are looking at a vehicle that switches between RWD and 4WD, putting a traction aiding device in the axle that is mostly disconnected doesn't make sense. You put the traction aiding device in the primary drive axle. The one that is always receiving engine power. The one that is used to drive the vehicle. Maintaining traction in 2WD is not affected by what's in the front axle. If you put the limited slip up front, you have to shift into 4WD to take advantage of the limited slip. Having a limited slip in the rear of a Jeep means you don't have to shift into 4WD as soon as you would without it. You get the benefits of the LSD all the time.


Of course, I went and did TrueTracs front and rear when I swapped gears in my XJ. Because two limited slips are better than one. But if I was only putting one in, it would be in the rear.
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Old 08-27-2019, 04:20 PM   #34
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Different experiences for different people will certainly show on a topic like this...

My Moab trip 2 years ago was very interesting. The group I wheeled with was very diverse and it gave us all a real perspective on traction devices. At the time I had only a rear LSD and open front. Right in front of me for the entire day was a rear locker and open front. Just in front of him was a front locker and LSD rear. Then the first 4 in the line were front and rear locked...

The front locked with rear LSD went everywhere the lock/lock Jeeps went. And it easily out climbed the open front lock rear as well as me.... When climbing, your weight transfer is to the rear meaning its much more difficult to spin one of the rear tires. Also, the front being light would allow the tire with least traction to diff out and lose all forward traction from both tires... But front locked meant both those tires kept pulling full time.

Last year I went front locked and rear LSD and I was a massively better climber. This is the combo for me. And the amount of time you spend actually trying to turn while climbing a difficult obstacle is not that significant.
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Old 08-27-2019, 05:06 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by derf View Post
Upon further reflection, I wanted to comment more.

And I want to make it clear that I'm not attacking you personally. I'm not trying to pick a fight. I'm just adding my perspective.



Your point that, off the showroom floor, a FWD car has better traction than a RWD car is technically accurate. But only because of the location of the engine and transmission. The problem is, everything else about FWD makes it worse for traction. And when you compensate for the weight advantage, you find out quickly how FWD is really pretty limited.

Manufacturers sell FWD cars because it's cheaper to build them and the overall weight advantage of not having to run a driveshaft and axle to the back (i.e. fuel economy based on weight savings). It's not because they have some magical ability with traction on snow and ice. They don't.

I do a lot of snow and ice driving as well. While I'm not in Canada, I got my snow and ice training and experience in the northern Midwest. My parents were farm kids who knew about getting stuck in the middle of nowhere and how to avoid it. I grew up with RWD cars. We always put tubes of sand in the trunk and learned how to drive that way. When it came to FWD cars as I was getting towards the end of high school, I learned quickly that I didn't have to add weight to the car to get good traction. But I also learned quickly that when the steering tires are the ones being driven by the engine, you are a lot more limited when it comes to traction.

Accelerating and turning the same tires at the same time means you have a much lower threshold for traction loss. I actually found that it was much harder to negotiate the snow and ice in FWD than a properly equipped RWD car for one reason. I can have marginal traction with the drive tires but still maintain full steering control in a RWD car. In a FWD car, you start to lose drive traction and you lose steering control at the same time. And that puts you in a ditch a lot faster.



FWD vs RWD aside, when you are looking at a vehicle that switches between RWD and 4WD, putting a traction aiding device in the axle that is mostly disconnected doesn't make sense. You put the traction aiding device in the primary drive axle. The one that is always receiving engine power. The one that is used to drive the vehicle. Maintaining traction in 2WD is not affected by what's in the front axle. If you put the limited slip up front, you have to shift into 4WD to take advantage of the limited slip. Having a limited slip in the rear of a Jeep means you don't have to shift into 4WD as soon as you would without it. You get the benefits of the LSD all the time.


Of course, I went and did TrueTracs front and rear when I swapped gears in my XJ. Because two limited slips are better than one. But if I was only putting one in, it would be in the rear.


On black ice good luck hardly I can walk on it. To get to my Jeep. Lol. Each one have a taste and have his own experience. I will take selectable lockers ARB work for me. One more round cheers.


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Old 08-27-2019, 05:11 PM   #36
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Whatever you do or decide, putting an auto locker in a D30 is a recipe for disaster.

BTDT, have a D44 now because of it.
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Old 08-27-2019, 07:00 PM   #37
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Upon further reflection, I wanted to comment more.

And I want to make it clear that I'm not attacking you personally. I'm not trying to pick a fight. I'm just adding my perspective.

I don't take you as an "attack" at all. Your explanations are quite good. Not withstanding I believe you and I are saying pretty much the same thing but rather from different angles and takes.


The front is where the weight is and therefore that is exactly where the best potential for traction is. It is for precisely that reason which a locked axle would perform better as opposed to the rear..... as far as pure traction is concerned anyway. Of course there are disadvantages to the front... it greatly hampers steering.... but I can lock my front or rears independently (or both) and I know through experience that a locked front axle by FAR outperforms the traction ability of a locked rear.... because of the weight.


But then on the other hand... there are distinct maneuvering advantages to steering with the drive wheels... you can angle your push/pull in different directions... unlike a rear axle which can only push/pull in two directions. Those who wobbled the steering wheel left and right to free themselves of being stuck know what I'm talking about.



Whether manufactures build FWD vehicles because they're cheaper has absolutely nothing to do with the topic at hand and seems to be quite the red herring people are throwing around. It's simply a well known fact that FWD vehicles perform better in Winter than RWD vehicles because the weight is over those dive wheels. Of course there is the issue of steering/maneuverability, but that will be the case with any drive well which also must perform turns.


It's an undisputable fact that the best potential for traction is at the heaviest point of the vehicle so when you consider a locking diff at the other end of the vehicle... you're losing that much more in potential traction.
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Old 08-27-2019, 08:36 PM   #38
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Um....
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Old 08-27-2019, 09:53 PM   #39
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For the most part, all angles of this discussion have been mentioned. I agree with the general conscensus that the OP should do a rear LSD. I plan to upgrade my stock rear LSD from a clutch style to a TruTrac style when the clutches wear out and money allows. I'd also like to put an electronic locker in the front, but I might as well upgrade to a Dana 44 if/when going down that path.

All of that aside, the best advice I've learned on this forum is, "Get stuck in RWD. Get out in 4WD." This is especially true in winter driving and for that reason I try to limit my use of engaging the front axle at all.
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Old 08-28-2019, 09:31 AM   #40
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Old 08-28-2019, 02:26 PM   #41
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I'll add my $ .02

Seems like generally, parts for a D30/D44 gear job & rear LSD is around $1,100-$1,300. I don't know if your ratio is 3.21 but those prices are factoring a new open diff for 3.73 & up. I picked up a set of front and rear TrueTrac's for $1,500 new. I've heard nothing but positive things about this setup on other JK owners with winter driving experience.
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Old 08-28-2019, 10:00 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by Pressurized View Post
Different experiences for different people will certainly show on a topic like this...



My Moab trip 2 years ago was very interesting. The group I wheeled with was very diverse and it gave us all a real perspective on traction devices. At the time I had only a rear LSD and open front. Right in front of me for the entire day was a rear locker and open front. Just in front of him was a front locker and LSD rear. Then the first 4 in the line were front and rear locked...



The front locked with rear LSD went everywhere the lock/lock Jeeps went. And it easily out climbed the open front lock rear as well as me.... When climbing, your weight transfer is to the rear meaning its much more difficult to spin one of the rear tires. Also, the front being light would allow the tire with least traction to diff out and lose all forward traction from both tires... But front locked meant both those tires kept pulling full time.



Last year I went front locked and rear LSD and I was a massively better climber. This is the combo for me. And the amount of time you spend actually trying to turn while climbing a difficult obstacle is not that significant.


After years of wheeling my Prefered combo is Front selectable locker and rear TruTrac. My latest project is a Rubicon with front and rear lockers. To be honest, after only one winter I already really miss my rear TruTrac for snowy icey roads. Could drive pretty much all winter in 2wd and not have any issues climbing snowy icey hills. Too bad I can’t get a TruTrac to replace the rear Rubi locker or it would be done in a heart beat. Around town on icey streets the TruTrac is amazing. As long as there is a bit of sand or clear spot on one side of the road or the other at intersections you are good to go. As for fish tailing, that’s a simple sign of someone who is not use to driving with a rear locker or LSD in snow ..


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Old 08-28-2019, 10:20 PM   #43
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I picked up a set of front and rear TrueTrac's for $1,500 new.
Sorry to be that guy but I think you may have overpaid a bit.
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Old 08-28-2019, 11:26 PM   #44
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As for fish tailing, that’s a simple sign of someone who is not use to driving with a rear locker or LSD in snow ..


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Bullshit.
Lived in Winnipeg for 50 years and driven RWD lsd trucks 8 hours a day, 5 days a week for the last 15 years.


I AM experienced.
Indeed I'm experienced enough to tell you there are times lsd is just plain dangerous and open diff would be better.
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Old 08-28-2019, 11:31 PM   #45
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Bullshit.
Lived in Winnipeg for 50 years and driven RWD lsd trucks for 8 hours a day, 5 days a week for the last 15 years.


I AM experienced.
Indeed I'm experienced enough to tell you there are times open diff would be better.
A lot of experience reinforcing bad habits doesn't really make you an expert.
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Old 08-29-2019, 12:37 AM   #46
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Bullshit.
Lived in Winnipeg for 50 years and driven RWD lsd trucks 8 hours a day, 5 days a week for the last 15 years.


I AM experienced.
Indeed I'm experienced enough to tell you there are times lsd is just plain dangerous and open diff would be better.
One Hundred percent agree spending most of my life dealing with black ICE.
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Old 08-29-2019, 07:25 AM   #47
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Honestly, if you hit black ice whether you have an open diff or a limited slip and where isn't going to make a lick of difference. You skill as a driver and a certain amount of luck are what will determine how it goes.
There are situations on black ice where an open diff would be better and there are situations on black ice where a limited slip would be better, but the differences are very small and it could go either way. The over-riding factor will be what you as the driver do, how you deal with the black ice.
We run a TrueTrac in back and a locker in the front and it works really well. No regrets.
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Old 08-29-2019, 08:19 AM   #48
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A lot of experience reinforcing bad habits doesn't really make you an expert.

How do you know I am reinforcing bad habits? Do you know my driving record? Do you know my habits? Have you ever seen me drive? How many accidents have I had in the last 20 years? You seem to know my driving habits so you SHOULD know how many accidents I have had.


Stop throwing shit on the wall in hopes that it sticks.


You have seen the real live examples from real people I have posted above stating that lsd breaks away completely and some times unexpectedly and yet you choose to place blinders on and continue to talk and second guess without backing ANY of your words up. Not cool.
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Old 08-29-2019, 08:38 AM   #49
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Sorry to be that guy but I think you may have overpaid a bit.
Should have phrased it differently. TrueTrac's & master install 4.56 kits.
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Old 08-29-2019, 08:42 AM   #50
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Honestly, if you hit black ice whether you have an open diff or a limited slip and where isn't going to make a lick of difference. You skill as a driver and a certain amount of luck are what will determine how it goes.
There are situations on black ice where an open diff would be better and there are situations on black ice where a limited slip would be better, but the differences are very small and it could go either way. The over-riding factor will be what you as the driver do, how you deal with the black ice.
We run a TrueTrac in back and a locker in the front and it works really well. No regrets.

That's actually not true. With limited slip you have that one wheel spinning while the other is not and that adds up to continued lateral stability. I remember coming home from a ski trip one night. My buddy was driving and we eventually started seeing all these cars in the ditches. We were probably doing about 60mph on cruise control at the time when my buddy decided to test the road surface and gently gave a bit of gas... you could hear one wheel start to spin. The entire highway was shear ice. It had been shear ice for a while and we didn't even know it. That's how invisible black ice can be. The only reason we continued straight and not sideways into the ditch when that wheel started spinning was the fact that the other one wasn't. It continued to offer lateral stability. If we had lsd that night, the rear end for sure would have broken away and we would have been in the ditch along with the rest of them.
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Old 08-29-2019, 08:50 AM   #51
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That's actually not true. With limited slip you have that one wheel spinning while the other is not and that adds up to continued lateral stability. I remember coming home from a ski trip one night. My buddy was driving and we eventually started seeing all these cars in the ditches. We were probably doing about 60mph on cruise control at the time when my buddy decided to test the road surface and gently gave a bit of gas... you could hear one wheel start to spin. The entire highway was shear ice. It had been shear ice for a while and we didn't even know it. That's how invisible black ice can be. The only reason we continued straight and not sideways into the ditch when that wheel started spinning was the fact that the other one wasn't. It continued to offer lateral stability. If we had lsd that night, the rear end for sure would have broken away and we would have been in the ditch along with the rest of them.
Sorry, Bob. But if you don't have enough traction that the one wheel is spinning you don't have any lateral stability either. And then there is the possibility that only one wheel is on the black ice.
In your story, the reality is that most, if not all, of those cars in the ditch had open diffs. It was not lack of an LSD that saved you. Driving slowly enough and smoothly enough is likely what saved you.
An LSD does not do anything until one wheel starts to spin. If you aren't spinning it isn't doing anything. If you start to spin and let off the gas it will stop.
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Old 08-29-2019, 09:36 AM   #52
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How do you know I am reinforcing bad habits? Do you know my driving record? Do you know my habits? Have you ever seen me drive? How many accidents have I had in the last 20 years? You seem to know my driving habits so you SHOULD know how many accidents I have had.


Stop throwing shit on the wall in hopes that it sticks.


You have seen the real live examples from real people I have posted above stating that lsd breaks away completely and some times unexpectedly and yet you choose to place blinders on and continue to talk and second guess without backing ANY of your words up. Not cool.
I'm sorry but random people posting in forums on the internet are not experts either. I can find all kinds of people on the internet who believe all sorts of absurd things. That doesn't mean that they're right either. If you want to find expert opinion, you should seek out an actual expert and learn from them.

And talking about how you haven't gotten any accidents is irrelevant. Going for decades without an accident is something that even below average drivers can manage. It's not really a high bar to clear because most people can do that. It certainly doesn't add to your qualifications as an expert in any way.

Pro tip: Highly qualified experts get into accidents from time to time.

Sorry but you're just off base here.
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Old 08-29-2019, 09:40 AM   #53
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Sorry, Bob. But if you don't have enough traction that the one wheel is spinning you don't have any lateral stability either. And then there is the possibility that only one wheel is on the black ice.
In your story, the reality is that most, if not all, of those cars in the ditch had open diffs. It was not lack of an LSD that saved you. Driving slowly enough and smoothly enough is likely what saved you.
An LSD does not do anything until one wheel starts to spin. If you aren't spinning it isn't doing anything. If you start to spin and let off the gas it will stop.
Exactly.
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Old 08-29-2019, 09:44 AM   #54
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Sorry, Bob. But if you don't have enough traction that the one wheel is spinning you don't have any lateral stability either. And then there is the possibility that only one wheel is on the black ice.
In your story, the reality is that most, if not all, of those cars in the ditch had open diffs. It was not lack of an LSD that saved you. Driving slowly enough and smoothly enough is likely what saved you.
An LSD does not do anything until one wheel starts to spin.

I don't think you're hearing me... the ENTIRE highway was black ice and it had been for a while... not just part of it.... and yes... as long as one wheel isn't spinning you DO have some form of lateral stability.
It's not just me saying this. I'll highlight it... AGAIN:


Quote:
Several months ago driving down a hill in the rain, my '97 f-250 ld, 3.73ls equipped truck, slid around from the rear-two 360 degree spins before coming to a (thank God), safe stop on the highway. I couldn't figure out, at the time, the cause. I was not turning, accellerating, coasting or braking. I just read on the TDR site about many members with Dodge limited slip axles, loosing control in snow and rain, with the rear breaking away. Is this a problem under these circumstances with these axles. Some Dodge members have said that with past similar trucks without these axles, they have not had these skid problems. I would appreciate any experiences or thoughts on this subject. Thanks
https://www.f150online.com/forums/ot...rain-snow.html


I kind of get the feeling many here don't quite understand exactly what black ice is.


Quote:
If you aren't spinning it isn't doing anything. If you start to spin and let off the gas it will stop.
A wheel is either spinning or gripping... one of the two. It can't just be doing 'nothing'



As for driving slow enough... 60mph (100kph) is mostly our highway speed limit. We do have some short stretches at 68mph... but it's mostly 60 here.
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Old 08-29-2019, 09:48 AM   #55
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I'm sorry but random people posting in forums on the internet are not experts either.
Would that random person include you?
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Old 08-29-2019, 09:48 AM   #56
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That's actually not true. With limited slip you have that one wheel spinning while the other is not and that adds up to continued lateral stability. I remember coming home from a ski trip one night. My buddy was driving and we eventually started seeing all these cars in the ditches. We were probably doing about 60mph on cruise control at the time when my buddy decided to test the road surface and gently gave a bit of gas... you could hear one wheel start to spin. The entire highway was shear ice. It had been shear ice for a while and we didn't even know it. That's how invisible black ice can be. The only reason we continued straight and not sideways into the ditch when that wheel started spinning was the fact that the other one wasn't. It continued to offer lateral stability. If we had lsd that night, the rear end for sure would have broken away and we would have been in the ditch along with the rest of them.
Remember what I was saying about bad habits? Who keeps going on cruise control at 60 when you start seeing cars in the ditch?

Rule number maybe 3 or 4 of snow/ice driving. Never use cruise control when you're on potentially marginal road surfaces. You're just asking to be one of the people in the ditch.

As far as lateral stability, if you were on a straight and level road surface, a slight spin of the two drive tires wouldn't send you into the ditch if you aren't running cruise control and don't panic.

Also, if you were driving a RWD car and spun the back tires, you would still have no trouble staying on the road because you would have still had steering control with your front tires. Let off the gas and the rear end comes back into line.

I do hope that you slowed down from 60 after discovering you were on slick roads.
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Old 08-29-2019, 09:55 AM   #57
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Would that random person include you?
Unlike you, I am not claiming to be an expert. And I'm not throwing shade on you personally. I just disagree with your assessment of the facts based on my own experience.
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Old 08-29-2019, 09:57 AM   #58
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A wheel is either spinning or gripping... one of the two. It can't just be doing 'nothing'
A tire can be rolling at the vehicle speed but still have no traction. In that case, it's not gripping but it's also not spinning either. So "doing nothing" is an accurate description of what's going on.

I have a feeling you don't really understand what black ice really is.
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Old 08-29-2019, 10:02 AM   #59
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Remember what I was saying about bad habits? Who keeps going on cruise control at 60 when you start seeing cars in the ditch?
We didn't. we did a road test. Are you not reading?


Quote:
Rule number maybe 3 or 4 of snow/ice driving. Never use cruise control when you're on potentially marginal road surfaces. You're just asking to be one of the people in the ditch.
Your own clear inexperience shows here. Obviously you have never been on black ice.... especially at night. The road looks perfectly dry and clear and that's exactly why there are cars in the ditches. You have no idea you're on ice until you do something kneejerk.


Quote:
As far as lateral stability, if you were on a straight and level road surface, a slight spin of the two drive tires wouldn't send you into the ditch if you aren't running cruise control and don't panic.
Inexperience yet again.
The front of the vehicle by nature is always trying to slow you down. meanwhile the rear of the vehicle (just before break away) is trying to push you forward. When you break away that bit of forward momentum just before breakawy must go somewhere... an it does. It goes sideways.... regardless of how level the road is.


Quote:
Also, if you were driving a RWD car and spun the back tires, you would still have no trouble staying on the road because you would have still had steering control with your front tires. Let off the gas and the rear end comes back into line.
LOL!
Nope... you've never been on black ice!
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Old 08-29-2019, 10:10 AM   #60
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We didn't. we did a road test. Are you not reading?


Your own clear inexperience shows here. Obviously you have never been on black ice.... especially at night. The road looks perfectly dry and clear and that's exactly why there are cars in the ditches. You have no idea you're on ice until you do something kneejerk.


Inexperience yet again.
The front of the vehicle by nature is always trying to slow you down. meanwhile the rear of the vehicle (just before break away) is trying to push you forward. When you break away that bit of forward momentum just before breakawy must go somewhere... an it does. It goes sideways.... regardless of how level the road is.


LOL!
Nope... you've never been on black ice!
Ah yes. As soon as I disagree with you, out come the insults.

Sadly predictable.

And, for the record, I was reading:

Quote:
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I remember coming home from a ski trip one night. My buddy was driving and we eventually started seeing all these cars in the ditches. We were probably doing about 60mph on cruise control at the time
This is exactly what you posted. You were running in cruise control when seeing "cars", plural, in the ditch. That means you have to have passed some while still running cruise control. And, by your own account, you didn't drop out of cruise control until after your buddy gunned it to see if he would break traction.

Who does that? Who doesn't immediately drop out of cruise control and slow down when in that situation?

If the sequence of events was not as you described, you should probably clarify your statement.

When I see the first car in the ditch, I'm off cruise control instantly for several reasons. First, if a car is in the ditch, there may be black ice. I don't wait to see if there is or not, I'm not going to take the chance. Second, any time you pass someone in the ditch it's smart to slow down because it's an accident and there are now pedestrians on or near the road. Third, they may need help and I slow down to see if they do.

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