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Old 08-30-2019, 12:27 PM   #31
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Dude,

Nowhere did I say you can't do it. What I said is that it's minimally acceptable on up to and including 33's with 3.21 gears. Minimally acceptable means it's less desirable that acceptable. There is a performance difference.

I did the same type of stuff on 3.21's, 33's and open difs. There was a difference in performance when I regeared to 4.56's. Less throttle needed and open to trying harder lines.

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Old 08-30-2019, 12:43 PM   #32
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The generalization part was that poster saying all of us who recommend regearing have never ran larger tires on 3.21's. That part is simply false for almost any of us who recommend regearing.

Sports came with 29" tires. Lot of straight sports out there. People buy them because either it's not worth buying stuff you are going to throw out or because it's the cheapest Wrangler you can buy.

Up to 33" tires fall into the minimally acceptable range for the Pentastar where 29's are in the Acceptable range.

Minimally acceptable means just that. Limited overdrive use, mild trails (meaning fire roads) and sluggish performance.

So to answer your question, yes, there are a lot of Sport S and Sahara models that should be regeared. 3.73's are the acceptable gear set for up to 33's and 3.73 gears were an option on both of those.
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Dude,

Nowhere did I say you can't do it. What I said is that it's minimally acceptable on up to and including 33's with 3.21 gears. Minimally acceptable means it's less desirable that acceptable. There is a performance difference.

I did the same type of stuff on 3.21's, 33's and open difs. There was a difference in performance when I regeared to 4.56's. Less throttle needed and open to trying harder lines.
Seems pretty clear what you were saying.
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Old 08-30-2019, 01:12 PM   #33
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@RhinoSportJKU , to be quite honest, that trail you pictured actually is what I would consider "mild" since you highlighted that part of the comment.

That said, the case for gearing is clear. The more you can crawl the gears and transfercase, the less gas pedal you need. 3.21 gearing is never going to "crawl" unless maybe you stick bicycle tires on a Jeep lol. So you needed a little gas pedal to get over those little whoops things. Anytime you add gas pedal, you drastically increase the odds of all kinds of carnage. With my Jeep (4:1, 2014 auto, 37s, 5.13) I can literally put my Jeep in drive and idle over the kind of stuff you pictured, all I have to do is steer. Zero gas, slow speed, far less likely carnage. Major benefit offroad that cannot be emphasized enough.
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Old 08-30-2019, 01:23 PM   #34
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People love to bash 3.21s on here but donít let that scare you away, itís all about personal preference and most people saying it will suck have never run an oversized tire with them. I run 34s on 3.21s and it upshifts more but in no way does it make the Jeep undrivable or ridiculously slow.
I agree - no issues with my Duratracs, they heavier than my OEM Crapstones.
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Old 08-30-2019, 02:07 PM   #35
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@RhinoSportJKU , to be quite honest, that trail you pictured actually is what I would consider "mild" since you highlighted that part of the comment.

That said, the case for gearing is clear. The more you can crawl the gears and transfercase, the less gas pedal you need. 3.21 gearing is never going to "crawl" unless maybe you stick bicycle tires on a Jeep lol. So you needed a little gas pedal to get over those little whoops things. Anytime you add gas pedal, you drastically increase the odds of all kinds of carnage. With my Jeep (4:1, 2014 auto, 37s, 5.13) I can literally put my Jeep in drive and idle over the kind of stuff you pictured, all I have to do is steer. Zero gas, slow speed, far less likely carnage. Major benefit offroad that cannot be emphasized enough.
While your point is valid for the way you use your Jeep, it doesn't apply to everyone.

Not everyone crawls rocks in their Jeep. Not everyone needs to build their Jeep the way you do.
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Old 08-30-2019, 02:13 PM   #36
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Yeah. I've heard they're downright dangerous and that an open diff will keep you from sliding sideways when you drive on black ice.
and you have heard that from more than one person now, but you know what they say... you can lead a horse to water.....
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Old 08-30-2019, 02:15 PM   #37
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While your point is valid for the way you use your Jeep, it doesn't apply to everyone.

Not everyone crawls rocks in their Jeep. Not everyone needs to build their Jeep the way you do.
The principles are the same, less throttle is better than more when off road. On the highway, you want all the driveline components to work together as designed. If your transmission is constantly upshifting or you can't use 6th gear, your driveline components are not working together properly.
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Old 08-30-2019, 02:26 PM   #38
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So I never should have climbed this trail, and many others like it? Good to know.




Do you have more pics of that ride? Details on your jk please.
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Old 08-30-2019, 03:42 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by mommymallcrawler View Post
@RhinoSportJKU , to be quite honest, that trail you pictured actually is what I would consider "mild" since you highlighted that part of the comment.

That said, the case for gearing is clear. The more you can crawl the gears and transfercase, the less gas pedal you need. 3.21 gearing is never going to "crawl" unless maybe you stick bicycle tires on a Jeep lol. So you needed a little gas pedal to get over those little whoops things. Anytime you add gas pedal, you drastically increase the odds of all kinds of carnage. With my Jeep (4:1, 2014 auto, 37s, 5.13) I can literally put my Jeep in drive and idle over the kind of stuff you pictured, all I have to do is steer. Zero gas, slow speed, far less likely carnage. Major benefit offroad that cannot be emphasized enough.
To be quite honest, I don't give two shits what you think. If I wanted to do hardcore rock crawling, I wouldn't be building a Jeep Wrangler, I'd build a buggy. I never said the trail I posted pics of was radical, or difficult, or anything. I was responding to cranbiz's statement that a Wrangler on 33's with 3.21:1 gears is only good for fire roads.

I've been driving 4x4's offroad since I was 12 years old. Long before you were probably around. I don't need you parroting what you've been told, and I don't need to hear about your awesome rock crawling Jeep. I know how to drive, I know how to pick a line, and I'm not interested in proving how big my e-penis is to people on an internet forum. If people are going to speak in superlatives here, (like is done constantly by the same people about gearing this, gearing that, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah) they need to be open minded enough (or polite enough) to hear other perspectives, and not constantly parrot the same old lines. Some of us just don't care, and your opinions mean less to some of us than you seem able to admit.

So leave us other people to our own, and go bash your jeep on some rocks.
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Old 08-30-2019, 04:23 PM   #40
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The principles are the same, less throttle is better than more when off road.
Not always.

Ever try running a mud pit? Snow bashing? Dune running?

The simple fact is that rock crawling is just one way you can drive a Jeep. And what works for a rock crawler is not always what you want to do when setting up your Jeep.

In the case of tires, axles, gears, etc. there is very much a strong argument for "one size does not fit all". Constantly regurgitating the same one solution for all Jeep setup questions regardless of how the Jeep will be used gets boring to listen to.


The OP is not a rock crawler. He doesn't need to set his Jeep up for crawling rocks. He needs better advice than we constantly get from the "the only Jeeping is rock crawling" crowd.
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Old 08-30-2019, 04:45 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by mommymallcrawler View Post
@RhinoSportJKU , to be quite honest, that trail you pictured actually is what I would consider "mild" since you highlighted that part of the comment.

That said, the case for gearing is clear. The more you can crawl the gears and transfercase, the less gas pedal you need. 3.21 gearing is never going to "crawl" unless maybe you stick bicycle tires on a Jeep lol. So you needed a little gas pedal to get over those little whoops things. Anytime you add gas pedal, you drastically increase the odds of all kinds of carnage. With my Jeep (4:1, 2014 auto, 37s, 5.13) I can literally put my Jeep in drive and idle over the kind of stuff you pictured, all I have to do is steer. Zero gas, slow speed, far less likely carnage. Major benefit offroad that cannot be emphasized enough.
This is the same point I was trying to make.

I made it to the top of Ma Bell in Massachusetts with 3.21 gearing, 33" Duratracs, and open diffs. People were astonished. I attribute my success 98% to good spotters, 2% to a willingness to give it a lot of gas. Ma Bell is I think on the high end of mild or low end of moderate.

So yes, it can be done. But there's a cost. When I got home from that trip, I had to pull off bent skid plates and fix a handful of other things. Why? Because when you lean on the gas that hard to get over an obstacle, you're more likely to keep right on going and drop down hard on the other side. With my 4.10s, I'd still need a little gas going up that trail but there wouldn't be any more slamming down.

If your wheeling plans are basically washboard dirt trails, you'll have to give it a bit more gas to go but you'll be fine. If you want to crawl over rocks, what you don't spend on gears will likely be spent on armor and replacement parts. As with all things Jeep, you can choose your own adventure. Just think about what you want to do with your vehicle first and don't be afraid to change your mind later.
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Old 08-30-2019, 04:55 PM
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Not always.

Ever try running a mud pit? Snow bashing? Dune running?

The simple fact is that rock crawling is just one way you can drive a Jeep. And what works for a rock crawler is not always what you want to do when setting up your Jeep.

In the case of tires, axles, gears, etc. there is very much a strong argument for "one size does not fit all". Constantly regurgitating the same one solution for all Jeep setup questions regardless of how the Jeep will be used gets boring to listen to.


The OP is not a rock crawler. He doesn't need to set his Jeep up for crawling rocks. He needs better advice than we constantly get from the "the only Jeeping is rock crawling" crowd.
We don't have any real trails around my part of MD. There are a few simple trails in western MD but not really worth the trip.
We have assateague island we can drive on the beach we also go down to Corolla n.c. and go out on the beach. And we prefer the beach. That is what I am setting up our jeep for. I also like to hunt when I can and at times have to go trough muddy farm roads and fields. I also like to play in the little snow we get. I already have my led lights, winch recovery front bumper, air compressor and recovery straps shackles pully and shovel manual disconnected front sway bar. I have not gotten stuck on the sand and really don't want to.
That is why I am asking about lockers on stock axles. When I put my 2.5 " lift on it and little bigger tires I was thinking if performance is bad I will re gear and maybe lockers at same time. They will already be in the axles for the gears so the labor for putting in lockers should be that much more. ?? But if they won't work well on Sahara stock I may have to rethink things some.
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Old 08-30-2019, 05:09 PM   #43
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The "locker" and "LSD" and "gearing" posts have sure riled up the masses lately... Lets keep it civil please. We all have different experiences and it shows in these discussions. It's okay to be passionate, but make your post and move on.

If you read the guidelines....

• Do not take every opportunity to express your disagreement, incite argument, insult each other, or fan flames. Voice your opinion respectfully and then let it go.

Have a great holiday weekend! Hopefully you get to play a little in your Jeep.
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Old 08-30-2019, 05:16 PM   #44
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We don't have any real trails around my part of MD. There are a few simple trails in western MD but not really worth the trip.
We have assateague island we can drive on the beach we also go down to Corolla n.c. and go out on the beach. And we prefer the beach. That is what I am setting up our jeep for. I also like to hunt when I can and at times have to go trough muddy farm roads and fields. I also like to play in the little snow we get. I already have my led lights, winch recovery front bumper, air compressor and recovery straps shackles pully and shovel manual disconnected front sway bar. I have not gotten stuck on the sand and really don't want to.
That is why I am asking about lockers on stock axles. When I put my 2.5 " lift on it and little bigger tires I was thinking if performance is bad I will re gear and maybe lockers at same time. They will already be in the axles for the gears so the labor for putting in lockers should be that much more. ?? But if they won't work well on Sahara stock I may have to rethink things some.
Lockers will work fine. You just have to temper your expectations with what you're doing.

Your rear axle is a Dana 44 that has a couple fewer splines than the Rubicon Dana 44 (if I recall correctly, 30 vs 32). You'll be fine unless you start doing heavier wheeling. Don't worry about the rear.

Your Dana 30 is where you'll run into arguments. The Dana 30 differs from the 44 in two major ways: the size of the ring gears and the size of the axle shafts. For the ring gears, you're looking at a smaller part. When you gear down, you're adding more teeth to the ring. More teeth means smaller teeth. Since you're starting with a smaller ring gear to begin with, your teeth will be smaller than a Dana 44's with the same gear ratio. For the axle shaft, you're looking at fewer splines and a less beefy part overall.

So what is the concern with the Dana 30 and lockers? The concern is that lockers will enable you to push more torque through the axle than these parts can handle. Whether that happens depends on what kind of wheeling you're going to do.

Why do people suggest a limited slip up front? It's less likely to do damage because it doesn't lock the differential into sending equal power to both wheels. It will, however, help in slippery conditions. A limited slip is also something that can be used on road and a selectable locker is not.

There are plenty of people who run lockers on Dana 30s just fine. There are those who don't. For what you describe, I personally think you'd be better off with a limited slip than a selectable locker in one or both axles. Regardless of your decision, I do hope this helps you a bit.
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Old 08-30-2019, 06:18 PM   #45
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We don't have any real trails around my part of MD. There are a few simple trails in western MD but not really worth the trip.
We have assateague island we can drive on the beach we also go down to Corolla n.c. and go out on the beach. And we prefer the beach. That is what I am setting up our jeep for. I also like to hunt when I can and at times have to go trough muddy farm roads and fields. I also like to play in the little snow we get. I already have my led lights, winch recovery front bumper, air compressor and recovery straps shackles pully and shovel manual disconnected front sway bar. I have not gotten stuck on the sand and really don't want to.
That is why I am asking about lockers on stock axles. When I put my 2.5 " lift on it and little bigger tires I was thinking if performance is bad I will re gear and maybe lockers at same time. They will already be in the axles for the gears so the labor for putting in lockers should be that much more. ?? But if they won't work well on Sahara stock I may have to rethink things some.
Installing a limited slip or locker while you are doing gears is zero extra labor. So all you pay on top of the regear is the cost of the locker.

The Sahara axles are fine for what you're going to do, assuming you're not heavy on the throttle all the time. They're the same as the axles in my sport and I run 35" tires on some pretty serious trails. They haven't let me down. But I also don't solve problems with throttle.
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Old 08-30-2019, 06:39 PM
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Would it be worth looking for a front axle from a Rubicon to give a stronger front axle?
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Old 08-30-2019, 07:04 PM   #47
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Would it be worth looking for a front axle from a Rubicon to give a stronger front axle?
the D30/D44 have the same strength housings. I for the life of me don't know how I have ever made it out the garage with all the requirements to go offroading. I can tell people who have 3.21, 3.73 and 4.10's you can do just fine on about any trail you have the initiative to try. I wheeled with a guy in Moab (Chris Smith a very good driver) who was running 3.21 and 37's and he rocked all the tougher trails without issues.

I have done the rubicon, dusy ershim, all the san juan colorado trails, montana trials and most of the moab trails and have done them with people who have had 3.21, 3.73 and 4.10's. never has anyone I have wheeled with had deeper gears than 4.10's. we drive where ever we wheel and those gears work well coming and going and everywhere in between. 95% or probably closer to 98% of the people here will never race KOH and will be just fine running whatever gears they have. We also mostly run 35's and that makes a difference too. If I were running 37's I might think differently but I doubt I will ever do a trail any tougher than the dusy ershim or Rose Garden hill and 35's did just fine on those. Hell thinking about it i even did potato salad hill without incident lol.
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Old 08-30-2019, 07:14 PM   #48
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the D30/D44 have the same strength housings. I for the life of me don't know how I have ever made it out the garage with all the requirements to go offroading. I can tell people who have 3.21, 3.73 and 4.10's you can do just fine on about any trail you have the initiative to try. I wheeled with a guy in Moab (Chris Smith a very good driver) who was running 3.21 and 37's and he rocked all the tougher trails without issues.

I have done the rubicon, dusy ershim, all the san juan colorado trails, montana trials and most of the moab trails and have done them with people who have had 3.21, 3.73 and 4.10's. never has anyone I have wheeled with had deeper gears than 4.10's. we drive where ever we wheel and those gears work well coming and going and everywhere in between. 95% or probably closer to 98% of the people here will never race KOH and will be just fine running whatever gears they have. We also mostly run 35's and that makes a difference too. If I were running 37's I might think differently but I doubt I will ever do a trail any tougher than the dusy ershim or Rose Garden hill and 35's did just fine on those. Hell thinking about it i even did potato salad hill without incident lol.
Well that's the real Jeep thing, isn't it? We always want more, and to do more. Hell, I sometimes look for projects to do on the jeep just because I'm bored!

From my reading, if you're going to spend the money on a Dana 44 you might as well get one that's beefier than the Rubicon's. But I really don't think you need to. I know I sure don't need to.
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Old 08-30-2019, 08:24 PM   #49
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the D30/D44 have the same strength housings. I for the life of me don't know how I have ever made it out the garage with all the requirements to go offroading. I can tell people who have 3.21, 3.73 and 4.10's you can do just fine on about any trail you have the initiative to try. I wheeled with a guy in Moab (Chris Smith a very good driver) who was running 3.21 and 37's and he rocked all the tougher trails without issues.

I have done the rubicon, dusy ershim, all the san juan colorado trails, montana trials and most of the moab trails and have done them with people who have had 3.21, 3.73 and 4.10's. never has anyone I have wheeled with had deeper gears than 4.10's. we drive where ever we wheel and those gears work well coming and going and everywhere in between. 95% or probably closer to 98% of the people here will never race KOH and will be just fine running whatever gears they have. We also mostly run 35's and that makes a difference too. If I were running 37's I might think differently but I doubt I will ever do a trail any tougher than the dusy ershim or Rose Garden hill and 35's did just fine on those. Hell thinking about it i even did potato salad hill without incident lol.
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Well that's the real Jeep thing, isn't it? We always want more, and to do more. Hell, I sometimes look for projects to do on the jeep just because I'm bored!

From my reading, if you're going to spend the money on a Dana 44 you might as well get one that's beefier than the Rubicon's. But I really don't think you need to. I know I sure don't need to.
I think this hits the point... The OP was asking about "beaches, snow covered roads and muddy fields". To go back to that question, he probably needs nothing... But a rear LSD would be a plus for sure.

Where I wheel, I am limited on the trails I can do. Places I could not go without upgrading my traction devices. Lots of trails and obstacles that lock/lock Rubi's have to do the bypass on. Even now as my rig gets better, I'm still not there for even the tough Jeep trails, let alone the buggy trails.

I have heard the "I haven't seen anywhere that I couldn't go that lockers could go." They just haven't seen crawling...

This is an obstacle on Lower Terminator. I have tried it once since I am locked front and didn't make it. I'm told, that nobody has seen anyone make it that isn't lock/lock. Once I upgrade my rear to a TrueTrac, I'm going to try to be the first. Also, nobody can remember anyone making it up on a D30... You know that recipe, right? The recipe for disaster?



Edit: For giggles, here is what it looks like with no Jeep on it.



Same Jeep on Collateral Damage...



Just a couple trails at Table Mesa... There are many more out there and they are only a mile or 2 apart.
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Old 08-30-2019, 09:44 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by Pressurized View Post
I think this hits the point... The OP was asking about "beaches, snow covered roads and muddy fields". To go back to that question, he probably needs nothing... But a rear LSD would be a plus for sure.

Where I wheel, I am limited on the trails I can do. Places I could not go without upgrading my traction devices. Lots of trails and obstacles that lock/lock Rubi's have to do the bypass on. Even now as my rig gets better, I'm still not there for even the tough Jeep trails, let alone the buggy trails.

I have heard the "I haven't seen anywhere that I couldn't go that lockers could go." They just haven't seen crawling...

This is an obstacle on Lower Terminator. I have tried it once since I am locked front and didn't make it. I'm told, that nobody has seen anyone make it that isn't lock/lock. Once I upgrade my rear to a TrueTrac, I'm going to try to be the first. Also, nobody can remember anyone making it up on a D30... You know that recipe, right? The recipe for disaster?



Edit: For giggles, here is what it looks like with no Jeep on it.



Same Jeep on Collateral Damage...



Just a couple trails at Table Mesa... There are many more out there and they are only a mile or 2 apart.
That looks like some pretty fun stuff right there
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Old 08-30-2019, 11:25 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by Rickypoole View Post
Would it be worth looking for a front axle from a Rubicon to give a stronger front axle?
Probably not. Outside of the differential housing itself and the axle shafts, everything else is the same as the Dana 30. It's not really much of an upgrade. The axle tubes are the same size and thickness. The inner "C" for the steering is the same. The outer steering knuckles, ball joints, unit bearings, brakes, etc. are all the same.

If you go with an aftermarket axle housing, which is many thousands of dollars once it's ready to go, is a major upgrade. But it's overkill for what you're doing. The Dana 30 should hold up just fine.
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Old 08-31-2019, 07:19 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by JeepJeepBeepBeep View Post
Iíve heard LSD are no good in the snow...
Most likely coming from people with a heavy right foot. I love the rear LSD in snow, turn off traction control, and drive right out.
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Old 08-31-2019, 07:33 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by derf View Post
There's a very good reason why Jeep went to 3.54 as the base gears in the JL. Add even taller overdrive and 3.21s are even worse than they are in the JK.
The ZF8 has deeper lower ratios in the first few, the WA-580 has a lower 5th gear compared to the ZF-8.

ZF-8
Gear 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 R (RWD) R (AWD) Spread
Ratio 4.71 3.14 2.10 1.67 1.29 1.00 0.84 0.67 2.65 3.06. 7.03


WA-580

Gear WA580
1 3.59
2 / 2-kickdown 2.19 1.67
3 1.41
4 1.00
5 0.83
Reverse 3.2*
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Old 08-31-2019, 07:49 PM   #54
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I drove my underpowered '83 Toyota p/u with 35's around Assateague on the beach and never got stuck. Also never felt Lockers would have helped me out of or through the mud when I got stuck. From what you are describing, I don't think you need lockers - but if you are regearing and it is in your budget it would be the time to do it.

I am not against LSDs, and in the rear it would be pretty good option. But if you feel the need to stick something in the front I would go with a selectable option. I had a cheap Lock-Rite in the front on my FJ40, and it sucked running tight trails in 4lo until I twin sticked the t-case so I could disconnect the front.

Oh, never ever ever post that you have 3.21 gears......just saying.

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