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Old 08-19-2019, 10:35 AM   #91
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I have a MT with 3.21 and 315/70 on it right now as I put my 33's on my wife's and running these until winter. Althought they are very worn, they still measure 32.5 on the jeep and 33 1/4 diameter mounted, off the jeep. Next year a re-gear is well in order.

Needless to say, taking off from a stand-still is not my favorite thing in the world. IT's a dog.

I also use very little clutch, I let the clutch engage completely, then I begin acceleration. When I do this on 87 gas, I hear pinging at the very lowest of RPM once load is initiated. The pinging here must mean the timing from being at the point of lugging almost causes the 87 gas to detonate before its most beneficial (perhaps even becoming a hinderance). With 89 octane I get maybe 10% of that pinging, perhaps meaning the firing is happening at a more benefical time, not only causing more torque, but also negating the cycles that pre-detonated causes drag?

I'm not sure the exact science to it. All I know it is VERY noticeable by ear and seat of pants. I can also crawl up one of my driveways in 1st clutch out very slowly without hesitation/pinging or roughness which I can't do with the 87 as it lugs too hard causing surging.

In first gear i can leave clutch out and hold the break and it almost stands still smoothly without surging. With the 87 it stalls/hesitates/fluctuates without comparison.

Not sure how else I can 'verify' my findings, but I'm happy with them.

Now I just hope $.20 cents a gallon doesn't set back my regear funds!

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Old 08-19-2019, 11:38 AM   #92
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GDI kind of negates the use of premium fuel to prevent detonation see Ford "Ecoboost, 10 to 1 compression +16psi boost +87 octane = Vroom. That being said Ford also plainly states in the owners manual that use of premium fuel WILL improve performance in heavy load situations. The ECM is specifically designed and programmed to do that, the 3.6 not so much.
Had a friend with a Rustang powered by one of those, I seem to recall a lot of controversy about it sacrificing a lot of power running on 87, like 60 HP or something significant. But those were the early days, I think about four years back, maybe they figured it out?

I suppose GDI is adding fuel later in the stroke maybe? Trying to figure out what, specifically about GDI helps -- given they're clearly still pulling timing for cheap fuel.

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Old 08-19-2019, 04:30 PM   #93
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^^^ GDI injects the fuel directly in to the cylinder just before the spark so you get no pre ignition do to heat of compression as there is no fuel in the cylinder during most of the compression stroke. This allows you to use lower octane fuel without pre ignition detonation [pinging]
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Old 08-19-2019, 04:33 PM   #94
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My 2014 will lightly ping under certain conditions using 87, so lately I've been running 89 and it eliminated the pinging.
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Old 08-19-2019, 05:02 PM   #95
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On that note, has anyone used a Superchips or Diablosport device to retune the ECU for a more aggressive timing map for 91+? Has this yielded a noticeable improvement? Really would like to improve the low end on the Pentastar. With the manual box, I feel like I have to constantly downshift 2-3 gears to get into a usable powerband for passing
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Old 08-19-2019, 07:01 PM   #96
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Premium gas doesn't provide any more power or contain better additives than regular gas, and it contains the same amount of ethanol as other grades. It just resists detonation (knock) better than lower-octane gasónothing more, nothing less.

I use Chevron regular.
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Old 08-20-2019, 02:13 AM   #97
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GDI is not sensitive to octane number at all it can run on literally any gasoline, on the other hand it is sensitive to mechanical cleanliness of the gasoline.
One tank of "dirty" fuel and high pressure fuel pump or injectors might be damaged. On the top of that GDI is sensitive to air cleanliness (One of my GDI Hyundai had 2 air filters) and intake valves with the time are getting caked with backed oil residue from PCV.
As for Pentastar - if is quiet on 87 I would never bother with premium. MPI isn't that sensitive to fuel and air cleanliness (to a certain extend) but octane number might be an issue, since they included that knock disclaimer in the OM I think the motor is tuned to a minimal good quality 87 (Chevron for ex) any cheap gas (like Costco) might ping under load, less performance, less MPG. On the other hand GDI owners wont hear a difference, those simply don't ping at all.
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Old 08-20-2019, 10:02 AM   #98
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My 2017 JKUR was pingging a lot on 87 on hot days. People even asked me about the noise when riding in my Jeep. Took it to the dealer and they said yes a lot of them ping on 87, some much more than others. It says so in the manual to expect "light knocking" on 87. I get ~80% less pinging on 89 and zero pinging on 93, even when it's hot out.
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Old 08-20-2019, 10:06 AM   #99
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From the owners manual:
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Old 08-20-2019, 10:18 AM   #100
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it contains the same amount of ethanol as other grades.
This varies by region.
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Old 08-21-2019, 09:04 AM   #101
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Premium gas doesn't provide any more power or contain better additives than regular gas, and it contains the same amount of ethanol as other grades. It just resists detonation (knock) better than lower-octane gasónothing more, nothing less.

I use Chevron regular.
Exactly!

There are lots of myths out there that for some reason people continue to believe:

Premium gas run cleaner, better
Steering Stabilizer fixes suspension issues
Exhaust "back pressure" gives you more HP
CAI add power (installed in engine bay)
All SUV are "off-roaders"
Oil changes every 3K miles
American cars are made in USA
Red cars are expensive to insure
Manual trans gives you better MPG

...and so on and lot more
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Old 08-21-2019, 10:15 AM   #102
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I'm no chemical engineer, but why is it when people report real-world experience with higher octane fuel providing benefit, they are immediately discounted as a placebo effect?

I read quotes like "because the manual says only run 87" and "the engineers designed the motor to run on 87"

In my 6spd, I experience zero knocks on 93; this is not a placebo effect or a change in my driving. I also get 19.5 mpg on 35s highway. (4.10) gears. Again, not a placebo.

Why is it practical experience with Y is discounted simple because the manual says you only need X?
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Old 08-21-2019, 11:22 AM   #103
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Premium gas doesn't provide any more power or contain better additives than regular gas, and it contains the same amount of ethanol as other grades. It just resists detonation (knock) better than lower-octane gas—nothing more, nothing less.

I use Chevron regular.
Some places do vary ethanol amount by octane grade.. (See SecondTJ's post above). Also, If you check gas company web sites, you'll see that some do include more additives in their premium blends.

Exxon for example includes extra detergents and a fiction modifier in their Synergy Supreme+ that they don't use in their lower grades. https://www.exxon.com/en/unleaded-gasoline

Despite that, I just use regular.. I've tried premium a few times but haven't seen enough benefit to justify the $5.00+ extra I have to pay every time I fill up.
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Old 08-21-2019, 12:06 PM   #104
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I'm no chemical engineer, but why is it when people report real-world experience with higher octane fuel providing benefit, they are immediately discounted as a placebo effect?

I read quotes like "because the manual says only run 87" and "the engineers designed the motor to run on 87"

In my 6spd, I experience zero knocks on 93; this is not a placebo effect or a change in my driving. I also get 19.5 mpg on 35s highway. (4.10) gears. Again, not a placebo.

Why is it practical experience with Y is discounted simple because the manual says you only need X?
There can be differences to cause the premium fuel to get better gas mileage, like if premium does not contain ethanol (or even a lower percentage of ethanol) while the other two grades do. But running higher octane fuel in an engine that does not require higher octane fuel and lacks the ability to take advantage of the higher octane will not get you better fuel mileage unless something besides octane is different.
I don't care if anyone else runs premium fuel in any engine designed for regular fuel. It doesn't matter to me.
But octane and knock do have to follow rule of physics. One interesting rule is that as elevation goes up (and thus air density decreases) the need for higher octane goes down. And the inverse applies, as air density increases (either through lower elevation or anything else) the octane requirements tend to increase.
We don't get any actual knock running 87. But if you do, run higher octane.
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Old 08-21-2019, 12:52 PM   #105
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Originally Posted by jeep63 View Post
I'm no chemical engineer, but why is it when people report real-world experience with higher octane fuel providing benefit, they are immediately discounted as a placebo effect?

I read quotes like "because the manual says only run 87" and "the engineers designed the motor to run on 87"

In my 6spd, I experience zero knocks on 93; this is not a placebo effect or a change in my driving. I also get 19.5 mpg on 35s highway. (4.10) gears. Again, not a placebo.

Why is it practical experience with Y is discounted simple because the manual says you only need X?
There are many other variables, it's not just the octane rating. The quality of the gasoline itself, if the underground tanks have more/less water in them, temperature, altitude, etc., etc.

The Pentastar has 2 knock sensors in the intake valley. The ECM will pull timing, resulting in KR (Knock Retard) being implemented by the ECM if the sensors pick up a possible knock. Many things can contribute to false knock, like a bracket banging, an exhaust hanger loose causing a portion of the exhaust to hit against the frame, an aftermarket item hitting on the fenderwell, engine block, etc. These sensors are "tuned" to pick up a certain frequency range, which under normal operation would be detonation or knock. Other metallic items can be picked up by the sensors, and cause KR. Many in the forced induction world fight KR constantly, and use tuning software to determine if their engine is seeing true KR, or false knock from a source other than detonation. I used to be one of them, and it can be maddening trying to find sources for KR. A bad knock sensor can cause this, along with many many other things.

No one is (should be) saying that you shouldn't be using 93 octane, it's just that the way the ECM tuning works, you won't benefit by the computer commanding more timing advance, which equals more power. Many high performance engines, especially those that have forced induction, benefit from higher octane and produce more horsepower because the engineers programmed the ECM/PCM to recognize the increased octane, and therefore increase timing advance resulting in more horsepower. The Pentastar ECM programming does not include additional timing being commanded when higher octane fuel is run. This is why people say there is no benefit (power increase) from running 93 octane in your Jeep.
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Old 08-21-2019, 01:40 PM   #106
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There can be differences to cause the premium fuel to get better gas mileage, like if premium does not contain ethanol (or even a lower percentage of ethanol) while the other two grades do. But running higher octane fuel in an engine that does not require higher octane fuel and lacks the ability to take advantage of the higher octane will not get you better fuel mileage unless something besides octane is different.
I don't care if anyone else runs premium fuel in any engine designed for regular fuel. It doesn't matter to me.
But octane and knock do have to follow rule of physics. One interesting rule is that as elevation goes up (and thus air density decreases) the need for higher octane goes down. And the inverse applies, as air density increases (either through lower elevation or anything else) the octane requirements tend to increase.
We don't get any actual knock running 87. But if you do, run higher octane.
Perhaps 'ping' is a better word than knock; less severe.
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Old 08-21-2019, 03:50 PM   #107
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An other thing to consider Gas stations, Disclaimer 99.9% of gas stations do not have 3 tanks to store fuel and do not take delivery of 3 grades of fuel.Mid grade fuel is a mix of regular and premium mixed right at the pump on the fuel island so if you are one who alternates between regular and premium save the hassle and just let the pump mix it.
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Old 08-21-2019, 03:54 PM   #108
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WOW..107 posts and still going strong. This one is going to beat out some of the oil Threads..lol
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Old 08-21-2019, 04:51 PM   #109
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WOW..107 posts and still going strong. This one is going to beat out some of the oil Threads..lol
And no one has been burned at the stake yet!
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Old 08-21-2019, 07:21 PM   #110
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I'm no chemical engineer, but why is it when people report real-world experience with higher octane fuel providing benefit, they are immediately discounted as a placebo effect?

I read quotes like "because the manual says only run 87" and "the engineers designed the motor to run on 87"

In my 6spd, I experience zero knocks on 93; this is not a placebo effect or a change in my driving. I also get 19.5 mpg on 35s highway. (4.10) gears. Again, not a placebo.

Why is it practical experience with Y is discounted simple because the manual says you only need X?


There are more variables now then there were 40 years ago and I can tell you this, it is not a placebo effect. Back before ethanol and a crap load of additives produced so many variables it was simple.
If you ran higher octane you had to advance the timing PERIOD no questions asked or you were wasting your money and the engine didnít run as well. You also had better performance and torque with the advanced timing.
If you ran higher compression you had to run higher octane.

So in my experience with the 3.6 I definitely donít see/feel the advantages of running mid or premium with the stock tune as my mileage over numerous tanks has dropped. It is Evident to me that the computer control on our 3.6 does not advance the timing enough to provide any advantage in running Premium fuel.

With my 2008 3.8 same situation however once I tuned the 3.8 for premium there was a noticeable difference in performance and mileage between the different grades. Factual numbers are not placebo.


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Old 08-22-2019, 05:31 AM   #111
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Ethanol (E10) 1.019 US gallons 111,836 BTU/gal
Gasoline (regular unleaded)1 US gallon 114,100 BTU/gal
This is where "power" and mpg is coming from not from octane number.
If regular and premium have the same BTU index there will be no difference in mpg or more power. With ethanol which has high octane but low BTU (Ethanol fuel (E100) 1.5 US gallons 76,100 BTU/gal) they can achieve different octane numbers but same or lower BTU.
Logically thinking for "blends" among with octane BTU index shall be posted also, because we buy "energy" or "miles"and not gallons of "something".
In other words if using premium pure gasoline there will be benefits like more power or better mpg. If pure gasoline isn't available using premium doesn't make any sense unless engine is pinging on regular.
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Old 08-22-2019, 04:09 PM   #112
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so i found this at a pump today. seems like a decent middle ground...




89 octane No Ethanol!!!!
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Old 08-22-2019, 10:54 PM   #113
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so i found this at a pump today. seems like a decent middle ground...

89 octane No Ethanol!!!!
Are you actually running Wawa gas?

Not sure if you’re joking or not... from what I’ve read, Wawa gas is lower-to-mid grade fuel... similar in quality as you’d pump at Sam’s Club or 7-Eleven, etc. If that’s the case, then no wonder there are folks out there with 3.6L Pentastar motors pinging away.

There’s even some TOP TIER gas I’d stay away from.. like ARCO. May as well fill your Jeep with donkey piss if you’re going to use ARCO.

https://toptiergas.com/licensed-brands/

I worked for a Mobil service station during the 70s and for decades, all my vehicles would get nothing but Mobil gas — high test Premium. I’ve owned several 1960s factory muscle cars with over 10:1 compression. About 10 years into ownership with my 1991 Cherokee XJ 4.0L... I started to get an intermittent condition what I call are false starts upon first crank — like it would flame out due to starvation. But it would always start on the second try...

I found it was the Mobil gas. As soon as I switched to Chevron Premium with Techron, the condition discontinued. I’ve owned that Cherokee for 28 years and it still has the original injectors. How I learned it was the Mobil gas, I went to the Jeep dealer parts department and talked to the parts manager. He handed me a bottle of Mopar fuel and injection cleaner and said to pour it in the tank — he also disclosed Mopar injector cleaner is nothing but rebranded Chevron Techron.

Since then, I’ve purchased nothing but Chevron gas with Techron and have zero problems.

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Old 08-23-2019, 12:23 AM   #114
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Are you actually running Wawa gas?

Not sure if youíre joking or not... from what Iíve read, Wawa gas is lower-to-mid grade fuel... similar in quality as youíd pump at Samís Club or 7-Eleven, etc. If thatís the case, then no wonder there are folks out there with 3.6L Pentastar motors pinging away.

Thereís even some TOP TIER gas Iíd stay away from.. like ARCO. May as well fill your Jeep with donkey piss if youíre going to use ARCO.

https://toptiergas.com/licensed-brands/

I worked for a Mobil service station during the 70s and for decades, all my vehicles would get nothing but Mobil gas ó high test Premium. Iíve owned several 1960s factory muscle cars with over 10:1 compression. About 10 years into ownership with my 1991 Cherokee XJ 4.0L... I started to get an intermittent condition what I call are false starts upon first crank ó like it would flame out due to starvation. But it would always start on the second try...

I found it was the Mobil gas. As soon as I switched to Chevron Premium with Techron, the condition discontinued. Iíve owned that Cherokee for 28 years and it still has the original injectors. How I learned it was the Mobil gas, I went to the Jeep dealer parts department and talked to the parts manager. He handed me a bottle of Mopar fuel and injection cleaner and said to pour it in the tank ó he also disclosed Mopar injector cleaner is nothing but rebranded Chevron Techron.

Since then, Iíve purchased nothing but Chevron gas with Techron and have zero problems.

.02
Me too.....
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Old 08-23-2019, 05:18 AM   #115
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Are you actually running Wawa gas?

Not sure if youíre joking or not... from what Iíve read, Wawa gas is lower-to-mid grade fuel... similar in quality as youíd pump at Samís Club or 7-Eleven, etc. If thatís the case, then no wonder there are folks out there with 3.6L Pentastar motors pinging away.

Thereís even some TOP TIER gas Iíd stay away from.. like ARCO. May as well fill your Jeep with donkey piss if youíre going to use ARCO.

https://toptiergas.com/licensed-brands/

I worked for a Mobil service station during the 70s and for decades, all my vehicles would get nothing but Mobil gas ó high test Premium. Iíve owned several 1960s factory muscle cars with over 10:1 compression. About 10 years into ownership with my 1991 Cherokee XJ 4.0L... I started to get an intermittent condition what I call are false starts upon first crank ó like it would flame out due to starvation. But it would always start on the second try...

I found it was the Mobil gas. As soon as I switched to Chevron Premium with Techron, the condition discontinued. Iíve owned that Cherokee for 28 years and it still has the original injectors. How I learned it was the Mobil gas, I went to the Jeep dealer parts department and talked to the parts manager. He handed me a bottle of Mopar fuel and injection cleaner and said to pour it in the tank ó he also disclosed Mopar injector cleaner is nothing but rebranded Chevron Techron.

Since then, Iíve purchased nothing but Chevron gas with Techron and have zero problems.

.02
I'll admit to being ignorant on this topic. Thanks for the link.
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Old 08-23-2019, 10:07 AM   #116
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My fuel related issue story;
Many years ago I would ride dirt bikes with a friend. Kick starting a big single cylinder dirt bike can be challenging, especially after it has sat for a few weeks. But I was always able to start mine right up while my buddy had lots of issues. I was using Shell gas, while he was using Amoco gas (remember them?). I told him to switch to Shell, he did, and his starting issues went away.
Now, that was a long time ago and I don't think it says anything about the Shell gas of today. All it says is that, contrary to what some say, all brands of gasoline are not equal.
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Old 08-23-2019, 10:33 AM   #117
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My fuel related issue story;
Many years ago I would ride dirt bikes with a friend. Kick starting a big single cylinder dirt bike can be challenging, especially after it has sat for a few weeks. But I was always able to start mine right up while my buddy had lots of issues. I was using Shell gas, while he was using Amoco gas (remember them?). I told him to switch to Shell, he did, and his starting issues went away.
Now, that was a long time ago and I don't think it says anything about the Shell gas of today. All it says is that, contrary to what some say, all brands of gasoline are not equal.
I know exactly what itís like to kick over a 1978 450 Maico after itís been sitting for a few weeks. My friend also learned the hard way, you donít try to start a big-bore with tennis shoes on. I told him to get his boots on, but he wouldnít listen.

The foot peg left a scar clear down his shin...



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Old 08-23-2019, 11:03 AM   #118
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I know exactly what itís like to kick over a 1978 450 Maico after itís been sitting for a few weeks. My friend also learned the hard way, you donít try to start a big-bore with tennis shoes on. I told him to get his boots on, but he wouldnít listen.

The foot peg left a scar clear down his shin...



.
I was 13 when I climbed on my first big Maico................scared the bejesus out of me. As I recall, they had a compression release lever though. The dealer in the town I lived in raced them, man were they beasts!

I started on a Hodaka Super Rat, and then upgraded to one of these. YX 175

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Old 08-23-2019, 11:15 AM   #119
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Originally Posted by m998dna View Post
I know exactly what itís like to kick over a 1978 450 Maico after itís been sitting for a few weeks. My friend also learned the hard way, you donít try to start a big-bore with tennis shoes on. I told him to get his boots on, but he wouldnít listen.

The foot peg left a scar clear down his shin...



.
My KTM 440 is the same way. Do not try to start it in sneakers. Boots are required for safety. And it makes starting it easier because you can kick it like you mean it.
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Old 08-23-2019, 12:33 PM   #120
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I really appreciate the fuel education from this thread. I kept asking myself "what is this top tier station stuff everyone is talking about?". It seems like the big oil companies are the ones to purchase from, I'll start adhering to this strategy and observe the results over time.

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