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Old 08-23-2019, 12:37 PM   #121
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I was 13 when I climbed on my first big Maico................scared the bejesus out of me. As I recall, they had a compression release lever though. The dealer in the town I lived in raced them, man were they beasts!

I started on a Hodaka Super Rat, and then upgraded to one of these. YX 175
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My KTM 440 is the same way. Do not try to start it in sneakers. Boots are required for safety. And it makes starting it easier because you can kick it like you mean it.
@RhinoSportJKU @GuzziMoto

A friend I rode with had a Super Rat and yes my Maico had a compression release - left side. I call it a shin saver...

Pictured - my 1978 Wheelsmith Maico 450 Magnum... owner's manual says 440, but it was built as close to a factory 450 works bike as you'd ever find. Greg Smith aka Wheelsmith Maico prepped all the U.S. factory bikes. They were located in Fountain Valley CA.

It had (still has) the original Fox Shox with 13" travel in the rear and Wheelsmith 12" front forks. I had the clutch basket blueprinted... one finger touch would blast you out of the berm...

Note the killer rear facing foot pegs...

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Old 08-23-2019, 01:48 PM   #122
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Are you actually running Wawa gas?

Not sure if youíre joking or not... from what Iíve read, Wawa gas is lower-to-mid grade fuel... similar in quality as youíd pump at Samís Club or 7-Eleven, etc. If thatís the case, then no wonder there are folks out there with 3.6L Pentastar motors pinging away.

Thereís even some TOP TIER gas Iíd stay away from.. like ARCO. May as well fill your Jeep with donkey piss if youíre going to use ARCO.

https://toptiergas.com/licensed-brands/

I worked for a Mobil service station during the 70s and for decades, all my vehicles would get nothing but Mobil gas ó high test Premium. Iíve owned several 1960s factory muscle cars with over 10:1 compression. About 10 years into ownership with my 1991 Cherokee XJ 4.0L... I started to get an intermittent condition what I call are false starts upon first crank ó like it would flame out due to starvation. But it would always start on the second try...

I found it was the Mobil gas. As soon as I switched to Chevron Premium with Techron, the condition discontinued. Iíve owned that Cherokee for 28 years and it still has the original injectors. How I learned it was the Mobil gas, I went to the Jeep dealer parts department and talked to the parts manager. He handed me a bottle of Mopar fuel and injection cleaner and said to pour it in the tank ó he also disclosed Mopar injector cleaner is nothing but rebranded Chevron Techron.

Since then, Iíve purchased nothing but Chevron gas with Techron and have zero problems.

.02
Its tough not to run wawa gas out here in the mid-atlantic. Most of the other stations are not nearly as popular and closing down. I run wawa fuel because I know it doesnt sit long, and their pumps have up to date inspection certificates. Nothing says shady like having a 2017 rejected sticker on your pump (exxon pump halfway between work and home). I do mix in techron once every oil change.
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Old 08-23-2019, 02:03 PM   #123
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Its tough not to run wawa gas out here in the mid-atlantic. Most of the other stations are not nearly as popular and closing down. I run wawa fuel because I know it doesnt sit long, and their pumps have up to date inspection certificates. Nothing says shady like having a 2017 rejected sticker on your pump (exxon pump halfway between work and home). I do mix in techron once every oil change.
I completely understand... and that's exactly what I was doing after I learned what Mobil gas was not doing for the injectors on my old Jeep. So I poured a bottle of Techron in the tank every 3,000 - 5,000 miles.

Since my cousin was an executive at Chevron and Techron is included in their additive pack, I decided to make the change and support the family at every fill...

We had long discussions about the refinery and distribution business.

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Old 08-23-2019, 02:07 PM   #124
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@RhinoSportJKU @GuzziMoto

A friend I rode with had a Super Rat and yes my Maico had a compression release - left side. I call it a shin saver...

Pictured - my 1978 Wheelsmith Maico 450 Magnum... owner's manual says 440, but it was built as close to a factory 450 works bike as you'd ever find. Greg Smith aka Wheelsmith Maico prepped all the U.S. factory bikes. They were located in Fountain Valley CA.

It had (still has) the original Fox Shox with 13" travel in the rear and Wheelsmith 12" front forks. I had the clutch basket blueprinted... one finger touch would blast you out of the berm...

Note the killer rear facing foot pegs...

.
This is pretty much the one I was coaxed into climbing on when I was 13 by my dad and the guy who raced them. It was his 1973 400, but he actually raced a 501.



There was no way I was climbing on the 501 (I doubt he would have let me anyway).

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Old 08-23-2019, 02:28 PM   #125
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This is pretty much the one I was coaxed into climbing on when I was 13 by my dad and the guy who raced them. It was his 1973 400, but he actually raced a 501.



There was no way I was climbing on the 501 (I doubt he would have let me anyway).

They look so peaceful sitting there, like a sleeping baby.
But kick them to life and they are a beast.
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Old 08-23-2019, 02:35 PM   #126
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They look so peaceful sitting there, like a sleeping baby.
But kick them to life and they are a beast.
For sure, but different times man. The technology and power of today's bikes make these seem like museum pieces. To think the 1974 501 Maico dyno'd at 37 hp vs today's bikes is pretty laughable really.

A new Kawasaki KX450 is 52 hp, and it only weighs 232 lbs.
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Old 08-23-2019, 02:43 PM   #127
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For sure, but different times man. The technology and power of today's bikes make these seem like museum pieces. To think the 1974 501 Maico dyno'd at 37 hp vs today's bikes is pretty laughable really.

A new Kawasaki KX450 is 52 hp, and it only weighs 232 lbs.
My 440 is from the between times, one of the last of the big bore two strokes but water cooled and rated at over 50 hp. 1995 KTM 440.
But there is a rawness of the two strokes, even the older ones, that the new four strokes lack. Are the new four strokes faster? Sure. But they aren't the same kind of experience.
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Old 08-23-2019, 02:47 PM   #128
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My 440 is from the between times, one of the last of the big bore two strokes but water cooled and rated at over 50 hp. 1995 KTM 440.
But there is a rawness of the two strokes, even the older ones, that the new four strokes lack. Are the new four strokes faster? Sure. But they aren't the same kind of experience.
Agreed buddy, agreed. My first street bike was a 1973 H1 Kawy, 3 cylinder 2 stroke. Next was a Z1-R 1000, which was faster, and handled 100 times better, but it didn't have the same raw, guttural feel of the old H1. My dad took me for a ride on his 1971 H1 when I was a kid and I was hooked. I must admit, I was kinda scared the first time I rode the orginal Z1 900 though. That thing was scary because of how big it was and the frame geometry was archaic compared to the 1980 Z1-R.
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Old 08-23-2019, 02:56 PM   #129
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I really appreciate the fuel education from this thread. I kept asking myself "what is this top tier station stuff everyone is talking about?". It seems like the big oil companies are the ones to purchase from, I'll start adhering to this strategy and observe the results over time.
ALL gas is the same when it leaves the refinery, but it's the additives added after the fact that separates the top tier from the others.
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Old 08-23-2019, 03:41 PM   #130
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Agreed buddy, agreed. My first street bike was a 1973 H1 Kawy, 3 cylinder 2 stroke. Next was a Z1-R 1000, which was faster, and handled 100 times better, but it didn't have the same raw, guttural feel of the old H1. My dad took me for a ride on his 1971 H1 when I was a kid and I was hooked. I must admit, I was kinda scared the first time I rode the orginal Z1 900 though. That thing was scary because of how big it was and the frame geometry was archaic compared to the 1980 Z1-R.
Rhino... I rode a fully built Kawi triple in 1973. A high school friend dropped by and claimed it was bore and stroked 750 triple.. chambers, etc. said it was a 10sec 1/4 mile street bike. All I remember was I couldn't keep the front wheel from lifting as I rolled the throttle, upshifting... but what was most memorable, I couldn't stop the damn thing.. the brakes on that bike was terrible.

That Kawi triple scared the crap out of me...

This is the one I should have kept...

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Old 08-23-2019, 04:41 PM   #131
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Rhino... I rode a fully built Kawi triple in 1973. A high school friend dropped by and claimed it was bore and stroked 750 triple.. chambers, etc. said it was a 10sec 1/4 mile street bike. All I remember was I couldn't keep the front wheel from lifting as I rolled the throttle, upshifting... but what was most memorable, I couldn't stop the damn thing.. the brakes on that bike was terrible.

That Kawi triple scared the crap out of me...

This is the one I should have kept...

.
The H2 750 was called The Widomaker for a reason. They didn't handle for squat (neither did my H1 for that matter), had too much power for the frame technology of the day, and above about 110-115, the front fork/tire assembly would oscillate and scare the crap out of you. When I finally sold my H1, there was not much paint left on the tank where it met the seat from the zipper on my Levis. If you didn't ride with your crotch right up on the back of the tank, there was no way to keep the front end on the ground. Good times!

And no disrespect to the Yammy RD400, but my H1 ate them for lunch.
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Old 08-23-2019, 05:23 PM   #132
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ALL gas is the same when it leaves the refinery, but it's the additives added after the fact that separates the top tier from the others.
TopTier certification is pretty stringent and expensive, too. Most GDI engines require it, so it's another common fuel-argument in forums for GDI vehicles. People who don't want to pay the extra 1 cent per gallon (or whatever it is) insist it's marketing BS, but (a) it's a standard designed by the manufacturers who don't otherwise benefit from it in any way, and (b) the certification process involves very expensive destructive testing of many, many engines.
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Old 08-23-2019, 05:49 PM   #133
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The H2 750 was called The Widomaker for a reason. They didn't handle for squat (neither did my H1 for that matter), had too much power for the frame technology of the day, and above about 110-115, the front fork/tire assembly would oscillate and scare the crap out of you. When I finally sold my H1, there was not much paint left on the tank where it met the seat from the zipper on my Levis. If you didn't ride with your crotch right up on the back of the tank, there was no way to keep the front end on the ground. Good times!

And no disrespect to the Yammy RD400, but my H1 ate them for lunch.
I really miss my H2, it was the only bike I have ever owned that I could smoke the rear tire coming off of a light, slow shift my weight back and bring the front tire up and shift through 3 gears before I let it down. It is also the fastest I have ever been on a motorcycle burying the speedo at 135. The key to going fast was to crank the steering damper all the way up but then slow speed handling really sucked. And even though the bike was primitive it still out handled, out brake and out accelerated the bikes of the day, early to mid 70's.

There is just something about growing up with 2 strokes that makes you more aware of of how an engine is performing. You had to keep them on pipe if you wanted any power at all. They where nothing like a 4 stroke with there wide power band, below 4000 rpm the H2 was docile, even a slug. But hit 4000 rpm and you better be hanging on. IMO this is probably one of the reason I am so hard over on re-gearing our Jeeps. Below 3000 rpms of so the Jeep is a dog, above it performs very well.

The good old days, thanks for the memories.
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Old 08-23-2019, 05:53 PM   #134
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TopTier certification is pretty stringent and expensive, too. Most GDI engines require it, so it's another common fuel-argument in forums for GDI vehicles. People who don't want to pay the extra 1 cent per gallon (or whatever it is) insist it's marketing BS, but (a) it's a standard designed by the manufacturers who don't otherwise benefit from it in any way, and (b) the certification process involves very expensive destructive testing of many, many engines.
Well the difference between top tier and anybodies else's gas is around 30 to 40 cents a gallon here. But I do run a tank of Chevron every 4th or 5th tank. Seems to work. I don't count ARCO as top tier gas.
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Old 08-23-2019, 06:33 PM   #135
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Iíve been reading up on top tier fuel. Is it a safe assumption that switching to a top tier fuel and running 87 may help clean out any build up over time and may also keep the pinging away? The cost difference in top tier 87 is less than premium so it will cut fuel costs.
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Old 08-23-2019, 06:42 PM   #136
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Iíve been reading up on top tier fuel. Is it a safe assumption that switching to a top tier fuel and running 87 may help clean out any build up over time and may also keep the pinging away? The cost difference in top tier 87 is less than premium so it will cut fuel costs.
Just about all of the major stations sell top tier gas. All grades sold at the pumps (87 to 92) have to have the top tier certification. You're probably using top tier now: https://www.toptiergas.com/licensed-brands/
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Old 08-23-2019, 11:54 PM   #137
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Just about all of the major stations sell top tier gas. All grades sold at the pumps (87 to 92) have to have the top tier certification. You're probably using top tier now: https://www.toptiergas.com/licensed-brands/
Not necessarily true depending where you live. Only about half the stations where I live are top tier, I was amazed to find that out when I looked it up a few years ago.

Surprisingly my Costco is top tier, not sure if that’s the norm for Costco but I didn’t expect a warehouse store to have it.

Moral of the story: look it up
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Old 08-24-2019, 06:44 AM   #138
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I recently learned TopTier licensees have a sticker on the pump. (I confess I don't stand around reading the stickers on gas pumps.)
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Old 08-24-2019, 10:59 AM   #139
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Not necessarily true depending where you live. Only about half the stations where I live are top tier, I was amazed to find that out when I looked it up a few years ago.

Surprisingly my Costco is top tier, not sure if that’s the norm for Costco but I didn’t expect a warehouse store to have it.

Moral of the story: look it up
Costco is the way I roll here in NY. Well Connecticut, because its closer. I run premium in everything. It's recommended/needed in three of my five vehicles, but the Camaro is GDI and if it helps with carbon deposits on the valves its worth it. My mowers and other small engines seem to run better on it too. Usually a $.30 spread up from regular. I get a rebate end of year too of several hundred $. I too run a dose of techron additive every 5K miles or so. My wifes 19 BMW recommends shell gas, but even though it supposedly has an excellent additive package it's way too pricey for me to justify in these parts. About $.80 to $.90 gallon more than costco. I burn 50-60 gallons a week average combined in my five vehicles. With my 3.8 jeep two door 4:10 rear (3:99 with current 33" a/t tires) and the automatic, and a superchip tune I kind of break even, because I went from getting 15 mpg to 20 average, "got 24 mpg flat highway run once" big portion of the gain is because it holds the overdrive, with regular gas and stock tune it couldn't. The added performance alone was worth the extra fuel cost for me. De-Carbonizing a GDI engine is not cheap either............... Synthetic oil helps too here. All depends on what you can tolerate in performance and want in longevity and maintenance costs, ownership vs lease.
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Old 08-24-2019, 11:27 PM   #140
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Costco is the way I roll here in NY. Well Connecticut, because its closer. I run premium in everything. It's recommended/needed in three of my five vehicles, but the Camaro is GDI and if it helps with carbon deposits on the valves its worth it. My mowers and other small engines seem to run better on it too. Usually a $.30 spread up from regular. I get a rebate end of year too of several hundred $. I too run a dose of techron additive every 5K miles or so. My wifes 19 BMW recommends shell gas, but even though it supposedly has an excellent additive package it's way too pricey for me to justify in these parts. About $.80 to $.90 gallon more than costco. I burn 50-60 gallons a week average combined in my five vehicles. With my 3.8 jeep two door 4:10 rear (3:99 with current 33" a/t tires) and the automatic, and a superchip tune I kind of break even, because I went from getting 15 mpg to 20 average, "got 24 mpg flat highway run once" big portion of the gain is because it holds the overdrive, with regular gas and stock tune it couldn't. The added performance alone was worth the extra fuel cost for me. De-Carbonizing a GDI engine is not cheap







either............... Synthetic oil helps too here. All depends on what you can tolerate in performance and want in longevity and maintenance costs, ownership vs lease.
. I don't want to pop your bubble BUT with GDI the fuel never touches the back side of the intake valve so it will have no bearing on valve carbon build up. Ford solved the problem on there 3.5 engines by using 2 fueling systems, port injection when running light load low boost so the valves get a fuel bath to remove carbon and GDI when you put it to work with heavy load and high boost to combat pre ignition and detonation Best of both worlds.
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Old 08-24-2019, 11:43 PM   #141
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. I don't want to pop your bubble BUT with GDI the fuel never touches the back side of the intake valve so it will have no bearing on valve carbon build up. Ford solved the problem on there 3.5 engines by using 2 fueling systems, port injection when running light load low boost so the valves get a fuel bath to remove carbon and GDI when you put it to work with heavy load and high boost to combat pre ignition and detonation Best of both worlds.
In Atkinson cycle GDI fuel mist somehow reach intake valves, in lesser volume than MPI though, however it delays carbon build up.
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Old 08-25-2019, 09:39 AM   #142
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. I don't want to pop your bubble BUT with GDI the fuel never touches the back side of the intake valve so it will have no bearing on valve carbon build up. Ford solved the problem on there 3.5 engines by using 2 fueling systems, port injection when running light load low boost so the valves get a fuel bath to remove carbon and GDI when you put it to work with heavy load and high boost to combat pre ignition and detonation Best of both worlds.
No worries, I put 204k on my 3.6 gdi gm engine and the valves weren't pristine clean, but were still decent. I contribute that to the type of oil, fuel and maintenance since it poked around town most of the time. I understand where the fuel hits the valve on my gm. Fuel is part of the combustion byproduct. I'm also familiar with the various gdi systems. Keeping with the original post, as carbon builds in an engine the compression increases the knock sensors will retard the timing decreasing performance to prevent the pinging. The premium fuel will help keep some of the performance.
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Old 08-25-2019, 11:15 AM   #143
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No worries, I put 204k on my 3.6 gdi gm engine and the valves weren't pristine clean, but were still decent. I contribute that to the type of oil, fuel and maintenance since it poked around town most of the time. I understand where the fuel hits the valve on my gm. Fuel is part of the combustion byproduct. I'm also familiar with the various gdi systems. Keeping with the original post, as carbon builds in an engine the compression increases the knock sensors will retard the timing decreasing performance to prevent the pinging. The premium fuel will help keep some of the performance.
Question of the week...

Can running premium fuel [91 octane], in an engine designed to run on regular fuel [87 octane], cause more carbon buildup over the long-term due to the slower burn rate?

Reference discussion:
https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forum...Number=2844327

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Old 08-25-2019, 11:24 AM   #144
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Not necessarily true depending where you live. Only about half the stations where I live are top tier, I was amazed to find that out when I looked it up a few years ago.

Surprisingly my Costco is top tier, not sure if that’s the norm for Costco but I didn’t expect a warehouse store to have it.
If you look at the link I included ( https://www.toptiergas.com/licensed-brands/ ), you'll see that Costco gas is listed as a top tier fuel.

I'm going to guess that since they don't specify certain stores or regions that all Costco pumps are top tier.

Same goes for all the other major brands listed on the top tier web site, Exxon, Texaco, Phillips, Chevron, Mobil etc. If you use any of them then you're pretty well certain to be using top tier. If you go to places like Honest Joe's Pump N Go, then all bets are off

Of course as mentioned in this thread, they put stickers on the pumps to indicate the fuel is top tier. That's the most certain way to determine what you're getting.
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Old 08-25-2019, 11:54 AM   #145
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Of course as mentioned in this thread, they put stickers on the pumps to indicate the fuel is top tier. That's the most certain way to determine what you're getting.
That's if the station owners ever bother to put the stickers on the pumps. I've seen a few top tier stations w/o them.
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Old 08-25-2019, 05:09 PM   #146
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Moral of the story: look it up

Significant omissions for this area: Wawa, QuickChek, Royal Farms
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Old 08-25-2019, 05:49 PM   #147
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Question of the week...

Can running premium fuel [91 octane], in an engine designed to run on regular fuel [87 octane], cause more carbon buildup over the long-term due to the slower burn rate?

Reference discussion:
https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forum...Number=2844327

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GDI will make more soot on any gas.
It doesn't burn slower it is less prone to detonation.
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Old 08-25-2019, 06:14 PM   #148
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Originally Posted by m998dna View Post
Question of the week...

Can running premium fuel [91 octane], in an engine designed to run on regular fuel [87 octane], cause more carbon buildup over the long-term due to the slower burn rate?

Reference discussion:
https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forum...Number=2844327

.
Good read, lot's of opinions for sure. I have 86k on my 3.8 2010, 75k with the tune and running 93. Just did the plugs and wires this week, because i threw a 302 code after it sat outside for a few days and it was raining on startup. Plugs gap increased on old plugs on cylinders 1+2 to .068 the others were .063-.064. Looked clean. Gapped new champion iridium plugs to .050 and new Mopar wires. Seems a bit smoother. I like the direct injection for performance and efficiency, but seems to be issues with the carbon buildup across the board, the Germans volks/audi seem the worst. Ford might have solved it, gm wasn't bad as far as I'm concerned, but walnut blasting the valves at 40k or less would be an issue with me on the vw's. I'm waiting to see how my wife's new bmw will be. Only 9500 on it currently. I don't mind paying a bit more for the premium fuel, I feel the engines run better on it, and I'm in NY so maybe our gas is formulated a bit different too. When I used to get non ethanol gas the vehicles ran the best as far as mpg goes. After I get my C8 vette, next vehicles for me will probably be electric anyway.......... Instead of oil/gas, we can all argue/debate/discuss, best tires, wiper blades, oh wait?! I forgot waxes and sealants......................
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Old 08-25-2019, 07:45 PM   #149
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Originally Posted by SecondTJ View Post
The only reason I use premium in my Jeep is because itís ethanol-free
Iím using ethanol free 57 octane. I have no idea if itís acceptable for this Jeep.
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Old 08-25-2019, 08:04 PM   #150
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemotan View Post
GDI will make more soot on any gas.
It doesn't burn slower it is less prone to detonation.
When we are talking pump gas (premium) it does in fact burn slower. It is for this reason we add more ignition timing when running higher grade fuels to insure a complete fuel burn and maximum pressure on the compression stroke.

Now when we talk racing fuels there are formula's that are high octane and fast burning. When tuning these vehicles timing requirements are drastically reduce.
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