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Old 02-04-2016, 03:43 PM   #61
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If they consolidated and were smart about what models went to which remaining brand I bet they would lower costs, improve sales, and make it easier to comply with CAFE and other standards. The products that sell still exist. The iconic "Jeep" is still there. The Cherokee and Grand Cherokee still exist -- just under brands that are honestly more fitting for where Jeep wants those models to exist in the market, anyway.

FCA is pushing 5 brands right now, and that isn't sustainable.
Sure, you would save money in overhead costs. But the down the road could be very bad. The cost guys are going to want to squeeze more money now we end up with shared platforms, A Jeep on a Durango chassis. Remember the Hummer, the H1 was one badass vehicle. GM got a hold of it and we got the H2 and the H3, failure.

As far as CAFE goes, yes with a wider range of vehicles the Wrangler could slide a bit on the standard. But that does not solve the problem. Hear again we can blame the cost guys for using a shared engine platform. The 3.6 may be the most powerful engine a Wrangler as ever seen it is still not powerful enough, it is to low on torque at cruise speeds. Hell a V8 Chevy 1500 pickup gets better mpg than the Wrangler with the same frontal area and weighing almost 2000lbs more. Drop a LS series motor and a 6L80 tranny in a Jeep and you will see at least a 5mpg gain in fuel economy. Why, because you have 300 ft lbs of torque at 1500 rpms.

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Old 02-04-2016, 03:58 PM   #62
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Sure, you would save money in overhead costs. But the down the road could be very bad. The cost guys are going to want to squeeze more money now we end up with shared platforms, A Jeep on a Durango chassis. Remember the Hummer, the H1 was one badass vehicle. GM got a hold of it and we got the H2 and the H3, failure.
That's already happened to Jeep. The Cherokee? The Patriot? The Compass? The Renegade?

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Hell a V8 Chevy 1500 pickup gets better mpg than the Wrangler with the same frontal area and weighing almost 2000lbs more. Drop a LS series motor and a 6L80 tranny in a Jeep and you will see at least a 5mpg gain in fuel economy. Why, because you have 300 ft lbs of torque at 1500 rpms.
GM power, Jeep capability. Pretty sure everyone would sign up for that! I know I would.

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Old 02-07-2016, 09:13 PM   #63
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Is it a Jeep? Sure technically I suppose. Is it a Wrangler? IMO no. I personally look at the current Cherokee and Renegade models and am afraid of what they'll do to the next gen wranglers.
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Old 02-07-2016, 09:29 PM   #64
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Not fond of it's looks.
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Old 02-15-2016, 08:51 PM
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Jeep /FCA knows if they tinker too much with the Wrangler, the brand will be in trouble, I'm sure alot of people buying Renegades, Compass, Cherokee etc are buying because of the Wrangler goodwill, lose the Wrangler will mean they lose customers across the board, baring government regulations, I doubt the Wrangler changes will be too drastic. A few manufacturers have toyed with the open air concepts but none have the Willy/Wrangler goodwill to risk coming to market.
FCA is in trouble generally. They're the only car company that is carrying huge debt, and the Jeep sales are the only thing keeping them afloat. That's part of why I asked the question. If they neuter the Wrangler, they's screwed.

I get that the constant rumors are that they are on the verge of doing so (IFS, no soft-top, etc), but what are the consequences if they actually do?
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Old 02-15-2016, 08:55 PM
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I've also read that the fold down windshield will go away. I don't think many JK folks fold down their windshields anyways so the feature likely won't be missed by many. That will allow them to strengthen the a pillar and likely meet any convertible safety requirements.
But most of those same rumors typically mention the rollbar (I know, we're not supposed to call it that, I'm old school) going way. I don't see how they get rid of the rollbar and the fold down windshield without moving to something that has a frame and popout panels similar to what is it the picture I posted.
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Old 02-15-2016, 08:57 PM
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It hasn't been a real "jeep" since it was a CJ7. However, it does kick lots of butt now days.
My first Jeep was an 85 CJ7, and I have to agree. I had a 2000 Wrangler and now my 2012 JKUR. I love my Rubi, but I would swap it for my old CJ in a minute if I didn't have two small kids.
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Old 02-15-2016, 09:05 PM
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The Wrangler only makes up 1/4 of all Jeep sales. Jeep is the only brand that has increased month over month sales for the last 5 years straight. Every Wrangler that is built is sold. The demand is higher than the production capability. The only constraint to competing globally is the production capability. And Jeeps that sell overseas sell just has fast as we can ship them.

You don't mess with success but you do have to evolve with the times. Jeep was almost lost after they CJ went out of production. It was not until the advent of the JK that I felt we got back to where we were. Make a radical departure again and we start it all over.
With Jeep essentially carrying all of FCA's other brands, how do you protect it from FCA? I've been thinking it would be great if FCA broke up and split Jeep into it's own entity. I'd like to see control of the brand return to the US where people actually get off-roading. Having a uniquely American brand run by Italians that don't fundamentally get Jeep culture makes me nervous for the future of Jeep.
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Old 02-15-2016, 09:20 PM   #69
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would be a nice hardtop option. wouldn't want it mandatory.
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Old 02-17-2016, 11:31 AM
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It only bugs me that someone still believes that any of those photoshop pics on allpar are true.
Allpar fully discloses that they are artist concepts based on rumors that are circulating. That's what they do, they try to give you an idea of what the vehicle they are hearing about might look like.

I thought that was pretty obvious.
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Old 02-17-2016, 02:23 PM   #71
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Still a Jeep. People who say a Jeep has to have (fill in the blank) are usually trolls like the single post user above me.
Might still be a Jeep, but not a Wrangler.

The soft top, removable doors and a manual transmission are about the only redeeming qualities on these Fiats. I wish Ford would make the Bronco again.
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Old 02-17-2016, 09:10 PM   #72
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Might still be a Jeep, but not a Wrangler.

The soft top, removable doors and a manual transmission are about the only redeeming qualities on these Fiats. I wish Ford would make the Bronco again.

All signs point to Ford making the Bronco but you can bet anything it won't be anything like what you're hoping for. No removable top, no solid front axle, no basic 4x4 vehicle. What I expect to see will be a 4Runner like SUV with some premium junk thrown in.
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Old 02-17-2016, 10:04 PM   #73
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All signs point to Ford making the Bronco but you can bet anything it won't be anything like what you're hoping for. No removable top, no solid front axle, no basic 4x4 vehicle. What I expect to see will be a 4Runner like SUV with some premium junk thrown in.
Can they really use the name bronco again though? Or will that just be a name that they'll never ever be able to use again? Perhaps when the new buyers don't know what I'm talking about, then the stigma is gone and it will be safe to use again.

Someone still owns that bronco btw. They tried to put it in a museum a few years ago and there was so much public backlash that they put it back in storage to wait a little while longer.
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Old 02-17-2016, 10:08 PM   #74
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Old 02-18-2016, 05:57 PM   #75
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Can they really use the name bronco again though? Or will that just be a name that they'll never ever be able to use again? Perhaps when the new buyers don't know what I'm talking about, then the stigma is gone and it will be safe to use again.

Someone still owns that bronco btw. They tried to put it in a museum a few years ago and there was so much public backlash that they put it back in storage to wait a little while longer.
Of course they can still use the name. Why not? Automakers have offices full of legal types to keep names trademarked.

Most people don't care about heritage. Mopar folks went nuts when the Charger was re-introduced as a sedan yet it's been a decent seller for a long time now. None of the people who buy the Wrangler just as a "car" have any understanding of the "Since 1941" stuff. Manufacturers leverage their history to appeal to the enthusiasts like us but even at Jeep we're a small demographic. I've also been told that the Bronco is going to be a high end, Raptor-like rig which puts it out of reach for most anyhow.

And what Bronco was supposed to go to a museum?
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Old 02-18-2016, 07:53 PM   #76
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Of course they can still use the name. Why not? Automakers have offices full of legal types to keep names trademarked.

Most people don't care about heritage. Mopar folks went nuts when the Charger was re-introduced as a sedan yet it's been a decent seller for a long time now. None of the people who buy the Wrangler just as a "car" have any understanding of the "Since 1941" stuff. Manufacturers leverage their history to appeal to the enthusiasts like us but even at Jeep we're a small demographic. I've also been told that the Bronco is going to be a high end, Raptor-like rig which puts it out of reach for most anyhow.

And what Bronco was supposed to go to a museum?
A: I agree with those Mopar folks. The reintroduction of the charger looked crap. 4 doors didn't bother me. But it looked nothing like a you'd expect a Charger to look. The newest ones look way better. They added some of the iconic scoops and lines.

B: I'd love to see the bronco return. If even to give jeep some competition to help keep the wrangler price from skyrocketing. I had a full size gold one. But all I ever see are the same "the bronco is coming back" concept drawings but it never happens. Same thing with the Ford Ranger. Keep seeing SVT Raptor Ranger concepts, but no real return. They can't keep getting bigger. Smaller trucks have to come back sometime.

C: that's a joke right? Either way, THE bronco. Al Cowlings bronco that carried OJ in 94 in the famous slow speed highway chase. Someone's been keeping it untouched in a garage for 2 decades as a football collectable item.
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Old 02-18-2016, 08:21 PM   #77
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I'm supposed to know some loser NFL fanboy has kept that Bronco? Pro sports are stupid and so is the owner of that Bronco.
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Old 02-18-2016, 09:16 PM   #78
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Only time will tell if the new Wrangler will be accepted as a real Jeep. Marchionne recently gave us only a few hints of what to expect. A windshield that does not fold and is raked back a little more and it looks like the solid front axle is saying for at least one more generation.
I can't find a link to the article I read regarding his interview but there were some bare results of market polling from current Wrangler owners and research regarding Wrangler features. As to the windshield folding, not one person polled had ever actually folded it with many not even knowing that it could fold down. This ended up being the least resisted feature removal and I can very see that being the case.
The most resisted removals were an open cabin option and among those that drove off road was removal of the solid axle.
Deleting the fold down windshield will not hurt Wrangler sales IMHO but other features are something they have think long and hard about. The amount of people that rarely if ever go off road probably wouldn't care or might even embrace IFS in the Wrangler. I believe Marchionne sticking to the promise that the new generation has to remain as capable or more than the current JK as well as huge the aftermarket segment is the only thing that kept the solid axle.
I'm still very interested in the top configuration. I've scoured the Web and found nothing but rumors so far.
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Old 02-22-2016, 03:32 PM
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They have a huge problem with emissions they have to deal with.

Another European Automaker Has U.S. Emissions Problem of Its Own - Bloomberg Business
To comply, FCA must improve faster than bigger and richer rivals who also are straining to cut emissions. Failing that, it might be forced to stop building some of the light-duty trucks Bloomberg Intelligence analyst Kevin Tynan says deliver 90 percent of its profit. Or, to keep making them, it could be forced into a merger.
“FCA doesn’t have the resources to fulfill the emissions requirements,” said Maryann Keller, an independent auto-industry consultant in Stamford, Connecticut. “It’s not a company that can survive in its present form.”
To fight global warming, the EPA will cap tailpipe CO2 as measured in real-world driving tests at an industry average of 223 grams per mile in 2025. FCA reported an average 428 grams per mile in 2014, compared with 302 for industry-leading Mazda Motor Corp.
When you have to cut average emissions by more than half, and your best selling vehicles are all "light trucks" you have to shave weight, or shave makes. Neither is a really good prospect for FCA right now.
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Old 02-22-2016, 03:44 PM   #80
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The EPA: Killing automobiles with the stoke of a pen since 1970.

I do agree that some things need to be done, but this over-reaching of slapping restrictions on things with no debate or oversight is ridiculous. They will kill the Wrangler soon. Whether we like it not, IFS, sloping lines and an ecomotor will be in a car with a Wrangler nameplate on it one day if the EPA keeps going unchecked.
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Old 02-23-2016, 12:07 PM
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They will kill the Wrangler soon. Whether we like it not, IFS, sloping lines and an ecomotor will be in a car with a Wrangler nameplate on it one day if the EPA keeps going unchecked.
Amen, brother.
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Old 02-23-2016, 12:58 PM   #82
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Don't want a soft top, having to add a hard top IMO is an irritation. And even then you don't have a real sealed structural top like every other SUV. I would vastly prefer a real roof.
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Old 02-23-2016, 01:02 PM   #83
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Don't want a soft top, having to add a hard top IMO is an irritation. And even then you don't have a real sealed structural top like every other SUV. I would vastly prefer a real roof.
That said, if it loses its character, the appeal is gone (for me at least).

If we could take the current truck, and build it with a fixed, sealed roof, that would be ideal for me.
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Old 02-24-2016, 01:15 AM
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That said, if it loses its character, the appeal is gone (for me at least).

If we could take the current truck, and build it with a fixed, sealed roof, that would be ideal for me.
And that would be the deal breaker for me. I've driven Jeeps for two reasons - off road ability and the convertible top. If they killed the soft top, there is no difference to me between the Jeep, the 4Runner, or a Raptor. In fact, at that point the Raptor starts to look REALLY good.
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Old 02-24-2016, 12:08 PM   #85
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And that would be the deal breaker for me. I've driven Jeeps for two reasons - off road ability and the convertible top. If they killed the soft top, there is no difference to me between the Jeep, the 4Runner, or a Raptor. In fact, at that point the Raptor starts to look REALLY good.
The 2017 Raptor already looks really good It can't get here soon enough. What would look even better is a bedless Raptor SUV.

I really like the 4runner, and have been shopping them lately, but they're missing the cool factor of the Jeep.

I agree you can't completely kill the soft top, there's just too many fans. But I'd really love for a real, fixed roof to be a model, and perhaps the ragtop be the option. My opinion is definitely in the minority on here, but I think it's a safe bet I'm with the majority of consumers.
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Old 02-25-2016, 01:56 PM   #86
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My opinion is definitely in the minority on here, but I think it's a safe bet I'm with the majority of consumers.
Majority of which consumers? Not Wrangler buyers for sure. Maybe most SUV buyers don't want a convertible top, but for them, every other SUV is an option. Remove the convertible option from a Wrangler and you are left with an SUV that can't compete with the more refined vehicles in its class for on-road performance. The buyers that want a die hard off-road vehicle with solid axles are the minority. The convertible top is what makes the Wrangler a Wrangler and what puts asses into seats.

Edit: Also, I guess I missed the part about not killing off the soft top completely, but it wouldn't make much sense to make separate models for the hardtop and soft top. I like the compatibility and the option to outfit my Wrangler either way. Would hate to be locked into one choice or the other.
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Old 02-29-2016, 11:58 AM   #87
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Majority of which consumers? Not Wrangler buyers for sure. Maybe most SUV buyers don't want a convertible top, but for them, every other SUV is an option. Remove the convertible option from a Wrangler and you are left with an SUV that can't compete with the more refined vehicles in its class for on-road performance. The buyers that want a die hard off-road vehicle with solid axles are the minority. The convertible top is what makes the Wrangler a Wrangler and what puts asses into seats.

Edit: Also, I guess I missed the part about not killing off the soft top completely, but it wouldn't make much sense to make separate models for the hardtop and soft top. I like the compatibility and the option to outfit my Wrangler either way. Would hate to be locked into one choice or the other.
Wrangler Unlimited consumers. I'd bet a big portion of the 2 door crowd too. If you got rid of the hard-top factory option, the wrangler product that exists today would cease to be economically viable.

If you look at the market, the vast majority of recent production are fitted with hard tops, many of which are painted hard tops, and most of which are rarely removed. The appeal of the jeep is hardly just the removable roof.

I doubt that most buyers enjoy having to check a cost-added box for a roof, or having to sift through soft top cars while shopping for a hard top. I know I don't.

I don't want to take your top-down experience away, but I will openly admit that the whole roof thing for me is an irritation and something that gets in the way of jeep ownership.

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Old 02-29-2016, 12:28 PM   #88
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it's still a Jeep just not a Wrangler, 4 features must be on the Wrangler for me to buy one.

1. Soft top/Removable top.
2. Full size spare on the back.
3. Drain plugs/hose down.
4. Manual transmission.
And that is only a fraction of the BS he has to share. What a find.
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Old 02-29-2016, 12:31 PM   #89
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Of course they can still use the name. Why not? Automakers have offices full of legal types to keep names trademarked.

Most people don't care about heritage. Mopar folks went nuts when the Charger was re-introduced as a sedan yet it's been a decent seller for a long time now. None of the people who buy the Wrangler just as a "car" have any understanding of the "Since 1941" stuff. Manufacturers leverage their history to appeal to the enthusiasts like us but even at Jeep we're a small demographic. I've also been told that the Bronco is going to be a high end, Raptor-like rig which puts it out of reach for most anyhow.

And what Bronco was supposed to go to a museum?
I can't believe I agree with Mike. The stars, the moon and the tides must all be alignment today.
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Old 02-29-2016, 12:38 PM   #90
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AllPar had a recent thread about the rumor that the next Wrangler not having a traditional soft top, but instead having a solid frame with popout windows, something like this:



Given the Renegade, the god-awful problems with recalls on the 2014-2015 Cherokees, and the general moves by Fiat since they acquired Jeep. I am really concerned about the future of the vehicle I have driven for 25 years. I bought an 85 CJ-7 Renegade in 1990. It was my first car. I had a 2000 Wrangler and now drive a 2012 JKU. But I am really afraid I may not be able to buy another Jeep that I would recognize as a Jeep.

Does it bug anyone else that Jeep is thinking of ditching the soft top for something like this?
I wonder what the 2-door will look like. I think in the right color it will look very nice. What happens in the future is contingent to a large degree on the economy and gas prices. Keep in mind this kind of anxiety exists with every new major design change, whether it's handguns or vacuum cleaners. A year or two later, the complaints go away and the hand wringing cycle begins all over again when the next make-over takes effect. But to be honest, I am very glad I bought my 2016 when I did.

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