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Old 06-26-2012, 05:19 AM
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Nutter Bypass Illegal EVERYWHERE?!

Hey all!

So I just read this in regards to the removal of "certain things" during and after performing the Nutter Bypass...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xpress

No, you can not. Not legally, it is a Federal Crime to remove ANY factory installed emissions equipment REGARDLESS of where you live in the United States of America. Posting about it on the forums is also VERY frowned upon as well, drop the argument before yet another thread gets locked
I live in Iowa. There are NO emissions standards what-so-ever. No visual inspections or sniffers... (I would have failed already if there were visuals - i'll leave it at that for now) I haven't performed the bypass yet but would like to get the ball rolling soon... Honestly, the legality of it isn't of any real concern to me - if I want to do something bad enough, I'll do it.

In order to do the bypass you're completely removing the computer from the equation. So does this count as "removal of factory installed emissions equipment" or is I only if I physically remove it from the Jeep itself? I know there are people that have done this in states with emissions standards, so there's gotta be a way around it, even if performing the bypass IS illegal..

My concern is in asking for help and what-not. I don't want any of my mechanic friends/acquaintances to get in trouble or feel like they're going to get in trouble by helping me. Nor do I want to be getting threads shut down or users in trouble for giving suggestions on the actual removal of "things"...

I've seen other posts about the Nutter bypass on this forum and other forums... So I feel like this guy was exaggerating or didn't know his stuff good enough - but I'd rather be safe than sorry. If its going to be a problem, I'll just do independent research (theres a few good in-depth sites I've found through my research so far) or join other forums that are more comfortable talking about these things..

Any information on this subject would be greatly appreciated!
Thanks!
-Keymo

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Old 06-26-2012, 06:47 AM   #2
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Technically it's illegal in California, so to answer your question, if the state that has the most strict emissions laws considers it illegal, then why would any other state be different? The person to ask though is 2xS, he's a California smog technician, he would know about it. You simply have less control over your emissions equipment out there, what you do with your rig is up to you. The nutter bypass is relatively popular though so there's plenty of people that know the ins and outs of it.

It is a Federal Crime to remove Federally Mandated emissions equipment, though the laws don't really say much about bypassing the equipment, just as long as your vehicle has them in place like they were from the factory. Removing your catalytic converter? Not a good idea, and especially not a good idea to post about it here, threads that have that sort of content generally get closed in short manner.

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Old 06-26-2012, 07:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Xpress
Technically it's illegal in California, so to answer your question, if the state that has the most strict emissions laws considers it illegal, then why would any other state be different? The person to ask though is 2xS, he's a California smog technician, he would know about it. You simply have less control over your emissions equipment out there, what you do with your rig is up to you. The nutter bypass is relatively popular though so there's plenty of people that know the ins and outs of it.

It is a Federal Crime to remove Federally Mandated emissions equipment, though the laws don't really say much about bypassing the equipment, just as long as your vehicle has them in place like they were from the factory. Removing your catalytic converter? Not a good idea, and especially not a good idea to post about it here, threads that have that sort of content generally get closed in short manner.
Hey now, I never said ANYTHING about removing the catalytic converter. I'm just clarifying before I get accused or someone tries to shut this thread down...

So from what you're saying, I wouldn't technically be breaking any federal laws if I performed the bypass but left everything in-tact emissions-wise? (as in the computer, wiring and vacuum lines related to emission controls) I actually planned on leaving the "required" things in there even if they weren't necessary to run in case I ever wanted to switch it back. I do want to move SOMEDAY. Haha!

Also, relating to the helping thing... Even if I were to get in trouble somewhere down the line (even though I plan on trying to make it as legal as possible) will I be the only one held responsible? And what are the consequences for breaking these laws? (other than you just can't drive that vehicle)

I'll probably PM 2xS like you said later today and see what he has to say as well...

Thanks for the quick response!
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Old 06-26-2012, 07:39 AM   #4
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Hey now, I never said ANYTHING about removing the catalytic converter. I'm just clarifying before I get accused or someone tries to shut this thread down...
I was just using it as an example.

Quote:
So from what you're saying, I wouldn't technically be breaking any federal laws if I performed the bypass but left everything in-tact emissions-wise? (as in the computer, wiring and vacuum lines related to emission controls) I actually planned on leaving the "required" things in there even if they weren't necessary to run in case I ever wanted to switch it back. I do want to move SOMEDAY. Haha!
Not technically, though it will vary depending on who you ask. I say it's your Jeep, do what you like within reason.

Quote:
Also, relating to the helping thing... Even if I were to get in trouble somewhere down the line (even though I plan on trying to make it as legal as possible) will I be the only one held responsible? And what are the consequences for breaking these laws? (other than you just can't drive that vehicle)
Well you might, you might not. Since you live in a state that doesn't have emissions testing you probably will never get dinged for it. Just play the stupid card if someone does bug you about it.

Quote:
I'll probably PM 2xS like you said later today and see what he has to say as well...
Would be a good idea, he'll probably chime in here and somehow disprove everything that's been said
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Old 06-26-2012, 08:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Xpress

I was just using it as an example.
Sorry, I didn't mean to sound accusing towards you either.

Quote:
Well you might, you might not. Since you live in a state that doesn't have emissions testing you probably will never get dinged for it. Just play the stupid card if someone does bug you about it.
Stupid card as in I didn't know it was illegal? Or stupid as in I didn't know the bypass was done to it? (speaking as if it's been done and someone says something to me about it) I just want to know the "best" response for covering myself if the situation does arise.. Haha!

Quote:
Would be a good idea, he'll probably chime in here and somehow disprove everything that's been said
Haha! Good to know! Though I don't doubt what you're telling me. If he doesn't post here, but responds to my PM I'll be posting to let people know what he says... There's gotta be others out there with the same or similar concerns as me...
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Old 06-26-2012, 08:45 AM   #6
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you cannot legally install a used engine from an older model into your jeep, ie 78 small block into 87 jeep. because the standards were different durring those years the federal goverment/epa mandates that. on states like iowa and ohio, theres noone to enforce it, but states like penn and mass and cali where they have annual car inspections, you can get busted bad. and the converter fine is 20k for the shop and 20k for the tech if we intentionally remove or disable one. hefty fine. and yes the nutter bypass has always been technically illegal. just most states have noone or no way to enforce it.
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Old 06-26-2012, 08:46 AM   #7
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any modified emission componet has to be from a newer model year to make it legal. epa rules.
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Old 06-26-2012, 09:19 AM   #8
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fwiw Modified/missing smog device is only a 500 dollar ticket and thats it. You get sent to the Bureu of Automotive repair, they tell you whats wrong and you have to fix it. If you do fix it you go to court, show them the repairs, and pay a fix it ticket for 15 bucks. If you dont fix it, you pay the non-compliance and its 500 bucks and your done.

It is such a joke. Its not to keep the environment safe, its just to make money. They dont "mark" your car as a non-compliant vehicle and take it off the road. They dont give you another BAR appointment.... They have you pay a fine and the ticket is done.


Removal isnt the only illegal part. Modifying or tampering is the same. So yes the Nutter falls into this category. But if you do not have emmisions testing or inspections, its never going to come up.
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Old 06-26-2012, 09:47 AM   #9
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The other thing is that your jeep is more than 20 years old. There are not many Technicians that know what it is "supposed" to look like left. I just left all of the stuff in the Jeep but have it capped off so unless you REALLY know what a stock 4.2 is supposed to look like you would never know mine was not stock. Most places here don't care as long as you pass the sniffer test.

Besides the ECM is complete crap in the 4.2 anyway. My Jeep runs significantly cleaner with the emissions stuff taken out. Like someone already mentioned the emissions rules are about revenue for the state, not about keeping the environment clean.
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Old 06-26-2012, 10:13 AM
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Originally Posted by 87yjman View Post
you cannot legally install a used engine from an older model into your jeep, ie 78 small block into 87 jeep. because the standards were different durring those years the federal goverment/epa mandates that. on states like iowa and ohio, theres noone to enforce it, but states like penn and mass and cali where they have annual car inspections, you can get busted bad. and the converter fine is 20k for the shop and 20k for the tech if we intentionally remove or disable one. hefty fine. and yes the nutter bypass has always been technically illegal. just most states have noone or no way to enforce it.
Hold up... So you're saying that my friend (or anyone - including me) could get fined $20k for doing the removal/modifying?

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any modified emission componet has to be from a newer model year to make it legal. epa rules.
Are you implying that (for the sake of argument) if I were to take a newer engine and it's components, lets say - 1990, that's been modified and then put it in my 1989 Jeep, THEN it'd be legal (sorry if this is a stupid question... It seems really stupid after I typed it)? Or are you saying that if I want my Jeep to run better and all that other good stuff that comes with doing the Nutter I should just get a brand new engine (or parts) and throw it in there (to stay legal)?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Norcal_Chris View Post
fwiw Modified/missing smog device is only a 500 dollar ticket and thats it. You get sent to the Bureu of Automotive repair, they tell you whats wrong and you have to fix it. If you do fix it you go to court, show them the repairs, and pay a fix it ticket for 15 bucks. If you dont fix it, you pay the non-compliance and its 500 bucks and your done.

It is such a joke. Its not to keep the environment safe, its just to make money. They dont "mark" your car as a non-compliant vehicle and take it off the road. They dont give you another BAR appointment.... They have you pay a fine and the ticket is done.
There's some conflicting information between you and 87yjman... Or maybe I'm reading things wrong... Is the $20k fine only for a certified shop getting caught? Then the $500 for me because I'm the owner? Also, if I DID live in an emissions state I could just pay the $500 every year and continue to drive my Jeep, nuttered/non-passing, without any repercussions? (Hell, I'd probably be saving more than $500 in gas each year with the bypass!)

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Originally Posted by Norcal_Chris View Post
Removal isnt the only illegal part. Modifying or tampering is the same. So yes the Nutter falls into this category. But if you do not have emmisions testing or inspections, its never going to come up.
That's what I was thinking... But I also wanted to know some additional information just in case..

Thank you guys for the responses! I'm pretty sure I'm going to be doing the bypass, but I figured having some basic knowledge of information about how the emissions laws work and repercussions from breaking them would be good too.


Something I just thought of... If I'm driving around in a state that DOES have emissions controls and my Jeep is modified, can they do/say anything to me? Or WILL anyone do/say anything to me? I'd hate to be on vacation or something and then have my Jeep impounded for not meeting requirements or something stupid. Ridiculous stuff like that ALWAYS seems to happen to me.

Just ONE of MANY examples from my life: I on vacation and on my second day out got arrested, yes ARRESTED, in New York for trail riding in my dad's Ranger ATV. I was told I "didn't have my ATV properly licensed (or registered - I forget exactly what it was)" After spending the day/night in jail and receiving a fine (don't remember how much), I get out and look up the laws. It turned out that (at least at the time) there were no laws what-so-ever about having Ranger ATVs licensed/registered (whatever it was). I knew this already because my dad had been using it for work the previous 3 months; told the cops - but of course they never believe anything you say. So I was wrongfully arrested (I may have given the cops some lip, but nothing arrest-worthy) and fined. I wrote a letter to the Judge (I was out of state at the time of my trial) stating and citing what I found. I never got a response, but after about 4 months of wondering I called the New York court system and asked about my case. Turns out he dismissed my charges and my fine. Thanks New York.
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Old 06-26-2012, 10:25 AM
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The other thing is that your jeep is more than 20 years old. There are not many Technicians that know what it is "supposed" to look like left. I just left all of the stuff in the Jeep but have it capped off so unless you REALLY know what a stock 4.2 is supposed to look like you would never know mine was not stock. Most places here don't care as long as you pass the sniffer test.

Besides the ECM is complete crap in the 4.2 anyway. My Jeep runs significantly cleaner with the emissions stuff taken out. Like someone already mentioned the emissions rules are about revenue for the state, not about keeping the environment clean.
COOL! This is good to know because that's kind of what I was planning on doing. I want everything (or as much as I can) still there in case I ever want to change it back or need to for some reason. Having a "clean" engine compartment isn't my goal in doing the nutter... It's for the improved performance and what-not.

That's interesting to hear that it runs CLEANER though! I almost want to try and get mine tested before I do the nutter to see if I get the same results!
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Old 06-26-2012, 10:28 AM   #12
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Here in missouri it depends on where you live, there are only a few counties/cities that require smog testing. Everywhere else has saftey inspections, but no smog test. Ive been bypassing that stuff since I was 16 and never had an issue.....but I dont live where they test that stuff, and never intend on that big city life stuff
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Old 06-26-2012, 10:37 AM   #13
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yes in penn that would be legal. always check your local smog and insp like big said. and yup my jeep is HISTORIC now so i can do just about anything to it!!!! has to b 25 years old in ohio. but counties and states and even some cities have wierd laws you have to check into. a city i lived in you cant even swap an engine in your driveway. they had to say they couldnt see it so it had to b in a garage. weird stuff like that.
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Old 06-26-2012, 10:39 AM   #14
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Yup have a buddy who got a ticket for changing a tire in his driveway in arizona....those people would keel over if they saw me ripping a body off a yj out in the driveway with a forktruck lol
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Old 06-26-2012, 10:42 AM   #15
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Here in the farm country of Kentucky they would stop and offer help.
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Old 06-26-2012, 10:44 AM   #16
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Gimme a bottle of turkey and you can drive
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Old 06-26-2012, 10:55 AM   #17
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u guys are killin me!!!! and both right!
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Old 06-26-2012, 10:58 AM
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yes in penn that would be legal. always check your local smog and insp like big said. and yup my jeep is HISTORIC now so i can do just about anything to it!!!! has to b 25 years old in ohio. but counties and states and even some cities have wierd laws you have to check into. a city i lived in you cant even swap an engine in your driveway. they had to say they couldnt see it so it had to b in a garage. weird stuff like that.
That's good to know. I didn't think about emissions and stuff for counties and cities... I'll have to look into that.

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Yup have a buddy who got a ticket for changing a tire in his driveway in arizona....those people would keel over if they saw me ripping a body off a yj out in the driveway with a forktruck lol
That sucks. Maybe his and yjman's cities are like mine.

I know my City has a specific law about working on cars in general. You aren't allowed to work on them AT ALL without having a floor drain. A cop stopped me when I was fixing my parking brake in my driveway a few weeks ago. I told him he can deal with it when my Jeep rolls out of my driveway, down the road and causes and accident or five. He drove away.

Because of the floor drain thing though, I've had to put a hold on my second project... So sad. 1959 Buick - my Grandma's first car. Granted, she didn't get her first car until after she was married and had kids, but still... (It's the car in my Avatar - the kid on the trike is my dad.)
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Old 06-26-2012, 11:00 AM
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Here in the farm country of Kentucky they would stop and offer help.
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Gimme a bottle of turkey and you can drive
I LOVE IT!

Maybe I should move to where y'all live!
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Old 06-26-2012, 11:20 AM   #20
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The other thing is that your jeep is more than 20 years old. There are not many Technicians that know what it is "supposed" to look like left. I just left all of the stuff in the Jeep but have it capped off so unless you REALLY know what a stock 4.2 is supposed to look like you would never know mine was not stock. Most places here don't care as long as you pass the sniffer test.
All it takes is that one technician and you're doomed. Around these parts SMOG techs are required to be edumacated on a whole host of vehicles, not just new ones. Cali is the worst smog state afteral, thanks to you outsiders
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Old 06-26-2012, 11:35 AM   #21
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That's interesting to hear that it runs CLEANER though! I almost want to try and get mine tested before I do the nutter to see if I get the same results!
We have a good mechanic down the street, the emissions testing machines have a "testing mode" where they don't have to put any info in, they just hook it up, and can print out the readings. When I do a mod and want to get it tested, I just take him a 6-pack or slip him 10 bucks and he throws it on the machine for me happily.

As far as it running cleaner Nutter'd it isn't really all that surprising. The only reason they had the emissions computer in the 4.2 in the first place was to make the EPA happy. Emissions computers in conjunction with carburetors never worked very well, and they were pretty much a complete failure in any car they tried it in. Doing it with fuel injection is a whole different story, EFI can react much faster than a carb can which makes them work correctly(plus they don't have the spider web of vacuum lines that inevitably go wrong).

In the 4.2 if something goes even slightly wrong with the vacuum system, the carb, the computer, or even the exhaust the whole emissions system does not work correctly. How many 22-25 year old cars have all of those things in perfect working order? My guess is slightly fewer than none. When one little thing goes wrong it throws the entire system out of whack, and it ends up being better to just remove it.
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Old 06-26-2012, 12:00 PM   #22
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All it takes is that one technician and you're doomed. Around these parts SMOG techs are required to be edumacated on a whole host of vehicles, not just new ones. Cali is the worst smog state afteral, thanks to you outsiders
Oh definitely, but they are mostly trained what to look for in any engine in general that throws red flags like golf tee's stuck in hanging vacuum lines, or wires spliced into computer harnesses. When they see those they look closer, I doubt there are many non Jeep owners/ex Jeep technicians that know exactly what the vacuum lines are supposed to look in stock trim. Heck 99% of people that own them have no idea what the vacuum system is actually supposed to look like. I consider myself a very competent back yard mechanic, and I can barely sort it out with a vacuum diagram sitting in front of me.

So if you do it right and keep it looking stock i.e. not remove anything, and run the new lines cleanly no one but the most seasoned Jeep veteran is the wiser.
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Old 06-26-2012, 12:07 PM
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All it takes is that one technician and you're doomed. Around these parts SMOG techs are required to be edumacated on a whole host of vehicles, not just new ones. Cali is the worst smog state afteral, thanks to you outsiders
I heard Cali was pretty intense on that stuff... Y'all are one of the most progressive states though. I'm sure it wont be long before everywhere is a SMOG state... I read an article, about a year ago, written by a technician predicting the end of "classic cars" thanks to the SMOG stuff and other various things having to deal with engines and other safety regulations. This article was also predicting the age where we no longer actually DRIVE - so who knows how accurate or far off that'll be... They were predicting flying cars for our generation in the 50's.

Outsiders? Haha! Do you mean people modding?

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We have a good mechanic down the street, the emissions testing machines have a "testing mode" where they don't have to put any info in, they just hook it up, and can print out the readings. When I do a mod and want to get it tested, I just take him a 6-pack or slip him 10 bucks and he throws it on the machine for me happily.

As far as it running cleaner Nutter'd it isn't really all that surprising. The only reason they had the emissions computer in the 4.2 in the first place was to make the EPA happy. Emissions computers in conjunction with carburetors never worked very well, and they were pretty much a complete failure in any car they tried it in. Doing it with fuel injection is a whole different story, EFI can react much faster than a carb can which makes them work correctly(plus they don't have the spider web of vacuum lines that inevitably go wrong).

In the 4.2 if something goes even slightly wrong with the vacuum system, the carb, the computer, or even the exhaust the whole emissions system does not work correctly. How many 22-25 year old cars have all of those things in perfect working order? My guess is slightly fewer than none. When one little thing goes wrong it throws the entire system out of whack, and it ends up being better to just remove it.
You make a very good point. I honestly don't think my system is working correctly at all. I mean, my Jeep runs good enough to get me wherever I want to go, but there's just some aspects that seem like they could use quite a bit of improving. (I've checked all of my lines tons of times to make sure there's no leaks, and I can't seem to find one) Hence, my research into the Nutter. It seems like it'll fix all (or most of) my complaints. Not to mention having a setup like pre-83's AND a better running engine?! COUNT ME IN!

To be honest, I like carbs. The potential failure of vacuum lines messing stuff up is a drawback... But I've said it a million times, and I'll say it again - I like things to be mechanical. EFI definitely has more benefits than drawbacks from what I can tell - but I still prefer to have a carbed engine than having an EFI... That's just me being me though.
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Old 06-26-2012, 12:23 PM   #24
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i removed my carter on my 4.2 and put a motorcraft 2 brl from a mid 70's 302. bolt on and very tuneable. ran an msd streetfire ignition. passed my states echeck for reregistering my jeep. now i dont have to do any of that (historic) but that was when my jeep was a daily driver. all states are different but in ohio as long as you had a converter on it and it passed a tailpipe test you were good. they only tailpiped carb cars. anything fuel injection you couldnt have the check eng light on. they still took your 20 bucks if you passed or failed. now i swapped in a 4.0 ho, kept i carb (simple) run the ignition box, and made a serp belt system. carbs are easier if you can tune em, but if not it mite b a nightmare for ya.
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Old 06-26-2012, 12:24 PM   #25
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it can be done key and its well worth it 2 ditch the carter carb.
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Old 06-26-2012, 12:31 PM   #26
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I heard Cali was pretty intense on that stuff... Y'all are one of the most progressive states though. I'm sure it wont be long before everywhere is a SMOG state... I read an article, about a year ago, written by a technician predicting the end of "classic cars" thanks to the SMOG stuff and other various things having to deal with engines and other safety regulations. This article was also predicting the age where we no longer actually DRIVE - so who knows how accurate or far off that'll be... They were predicting flying cars for our generation in the 50's.
Only because we, the idiot population, give our government the power to control such things. If we all chipped in and told the government to _____ off, then we wouldn't be in such positions we are in nowadays.

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Outsiders? Haha! Do you mean people modding?
No I mean people coming in from out of state.. Clogging up our air. Need more trees I think..
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Old 06-26-2012, 12:40 PM
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i removed my carter on my 4.2 and put a motorcraft 2 brl from a mid 70's 302. bolt on and very tuneable. ran an msd streetfire ignition. passed my states echeck for reregistering my jeep. now i dont have to do any of that (historic) but that was when my jeep was a daily driver. all states are different but in ohio as long as you had a converter on it and it passed a tailpipe test you were good. they only tailpiped carb cars. anything fuel injection you couldnt have the check eng light on. they still took your 20 bucks if you passed or failed. now i swapped in a 4.0 ho, kept i carb (simple) run the ignition box, and made a serp belt system. carbs are easier if you can tune em, but if not it mite b a nightmare for ya.
I've been thinking about investing in a Motorcraft... I've heard lots of good things about them. I think my carb is the stock carter.. I'd grab a picture, but I really don't feel like removing anything to get a good view of it right now.. I've looked up pictures online though, and it appears to be a Carter. I've actually adjusted my idle many times (mainly just to test various idle RPMs...).
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Old 06-26-2012, 12:53 PM
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it can be done key and its well worth it 2 ditch the carter carb.
Should I see if I can hit up a pick-n-pull and try to find one? Would I need to upgrade the ignition as well like you did? Or can I stick with stock everything BUT the Motorcraft? If you couldn't tell, I'm new to this kind of stuff... But I'm a fast learner!

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Only because we, the idiot population, give our government the power to control such things. If we all chipped in and told the government to _____ off, then we wouldn't be in such positions we are in nowadays.



No I mean people coming in from out of state.. Clogging up our air. Need more trees I think..
I'll give you that. There are a lot of things that could be a lot different if someone would just put their foot down... And by someone I mean a large chunk of the population. Haha!

Oooooh! Tourists? The massive amount of people moving there?? Haha! I know a lot of people that have moved out there from Iowa. A few moved to your typical L.A. and S.F. ... One of my good friends just moved out there this year. I believe to Redding..? I always forget the town's name. Hmmm...
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Old 06-26-2012, 12:53 PM   #29
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Cali is the worst smog state afteral, thanks to you outsiders
Lets tell the truth, it has nothing to do with outsiders, it has to do with having the largest population of poverty stricken people in north america, it also has to do with people in California, residents doing anything they can at every opportunity to thwart the laws in any way they can, but the largest cause of California legislative stupidity is the health freaks who put "This product is known to the state of California to cause cancer" on every single product sold in that state, these people want to be able to bicycle from Pomona to Malibu wearing hemp and slurping tofu, they want to live in the largest urban setting and have no ill effects from it, thats why California has banned smoking in your own car, banned any truck from delivering goods iin or taking produce and goods out of California unless they have the new DEF equipped engines, the sails on the bottom of the trailer, a no-idle policy (APU equipped or not), they even want reefers shut off so everyones food can half rot by the time it gets to you. None of these things are caused by or initiated by outsiders. The rest of the country worries about their southern border, California only cares about the eastern borders.
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Old 06-26-2012, 01:05 PM   #30
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It's a joke... Why so serious?

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