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Old 05-20-2016, 02:12 AM
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2018 Jeep Wrangler Prototype Spied: Top 10 Predictions & Rumors

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6nE-YtE6K7s

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Old 05-20-2016, 09:22 AM   #2
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I saw that video too. What I found interesting was that TFL mentioned the manual transmission may be upgraded for better fuel efficiency, and while TFL didn't mention it, the torque rating will probably be upgraded as well to handle the diesel.

If true, this means Jeep probably won't use the NSG370. It would be more worthwhile to use a different transmission all together. The question is, what will they replace it with? If fuel efficiency is indeed the goal, they should use a 7-speed manual., as that is the only way I can see the manual transmission improving fuel efficiency significantly.

In the case of the Challenger which offers the 8-speed auto and a 6-speed manual, the 6-speed gets less MPG to the point where you have to pay the gas guzzler tax as opposed to the 8-speed. That being said, I don't think 6-speed/8-speed is the best combination. 7-speed/8-speed would be better. Perhaps whatever transmission they use will replace the manual transmission in the Challenger as well.

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Old 05-20-2016, 04:59 PM   #3
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Stop saying 7-speed manual... now you're just teasing !!

Still think they shoulda just unified on that ZF 7-speed (7DT45) with both dual clutch auto and true manual option, and all with 85% the same parts.
It could also handle the 500NM/400lb-ft torque of the EcoDiesel and 400+HP of any Hemi mod. Currently it's doing the job in the Carrera S with 370lb-ft and 420HP. So wouldn't even need the 700+NM one of the Panemera.

http://brightcove.vo.llnwd.net/e1/pd...F-7DT45-EN.mp4

same link Youtube (man what a pain in the A$$ to edit those clips to format properly here);

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cd10w...ature=youtu.be


Ohhh... shoulda...woulda...coulda

Anywhoo, would love to see them replace the manual transmission also. Did think they would do it independently, but perhaps they are platform shopping for Challenger, Charger, etc. Cross-over.

However, something to remember, while the Tremec is a bit heavy (121-146.2lbs vs 89lbs of the NSG) and longer (shouldn't be an issue now that they are making room for the ZF-8), but the Tremec could still be an option as it would be able to handle much more torque (580-880NM vs 400NM). The thing is that they would have to adjust the ratios dramatically currently the NSG 370 is as follows from 1st-6th : 4.46/2.61/1.72/1.25/1.00/0.84 whereas the Tremec's best low-range of their 6 posted on their product pages, is: 3.01/2.07/1.43/1.00/0.84/0.57 which mean a terrible crawl ratio without offsetting with massive axle ratio, which kills the benefit. What you would want is a wider spread not just smaller ratio in 6th. Having a spread from 4.0x - 0.6x would be a good balance IMO, and Jeep could have it configured that what if they wanted.

http://www.tremec.com/anexos/TREMEC_TR-6060.pdf

I would just prefer a fresh new approach, and as I said before, with a an extra gear (or two) to address highway activities when you're driving to the trail-head.
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Old 05-20-2016, 06:29 PM   #4
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However, something to remember, while the Tremec is a bit heavy (121-146.2lbs vs 89lbs of the NSG) and longer (shouldn't be an issue now that they are making room for the ZF-8), but the Tremec could still be an option as it would be able to handle much more torque (580-880NM vs 400NM). The thing is that they would have to adjust the ratios dramatically currently the NSG 370 is as follows from 1st-6th : 4.46/2.61/1.72/1.25/1.00/0.84 whereas the Tremec's best low-range of their 6 posted on their product pages, is: 3.01/2.07/1.43/1.00/0.84/0.57 which mean a terrible crawl ratio without offsetting with massive axle ratio, which kills the benefit. What you would want is a wider spread not just smaller ratio in 6th. Having a spread from 4.0x - 0.6x would be a good balance IMO, and Jeep could have it configured that what if they wanted.
If the intent is improved efficiency, I am not sure the Tremec is the best option. Like I said, in the Challenger which offers both the Tremec 6-speed and ZF 8-speed, there is a significant fuel efficiency disparity between the two transmissions. So if efficiency is the goal, I don't think there is anything to be gained from the Tremec 6-speed.
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Old 05-21-2016, 12:05 AM   #5
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The ZF 8 speed is pretty darn good though. But if they make a diesel wrangler.. oh boy!
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Old 05-24-2016, 12:10 PM   #6
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If the intent is improved efficiency, I am not sure the Tremec is the best option. Like I said, in the Challenger which offers both the Tremec 6-speed and ZF 8-speed, there is a significant fuel efficiency disparity between the two transmissions. So if efficiency is the goal, I don't think there is anything to be gained from the Tremec 6-speed.
True, but like I mention, that's with the current ratios, in which the spread it terrible. In order to make up for the tall gear ratios they currently use in first (2.x-3.x) they would likely have to have a higher/shorter axle ratio in order to still have good acceleration, but that would mean they kill fuel efficiency on the highway, and to do it the other way around and have good highway fuel efficiency then they compromise the acceleration and low-end power delivery.
Now if they had a wider spread starting at 4.xx in 1st and going to 0.6x in 6th with a good 1-2-3 acceleration/towing balance and a good 4-5-6 highway efficience/top-speed to allow for fluid shifting instead of staking it on one end or the other, then the net result should be overall system efficiency.
Although, you're still pushing a brick into the wind, so there's only so much you can achieve by adjusting ratios alone, but the Pentastar has more than enough low-end HP to deliver efficient highway cruising, and even the diesel can putter-around in that 2K and below range to improve MPG, they just need to keep it in that sweet spot, and help it get there easier.

The main thing will be coming close to matching whichever new Manual's ratio top to bottom with the new 8-speed's additional range over the current NAG1. The 845RE ratio is current 4.71-0.67 so noticeably wider spread than even the NSG370's 4.46-0.84 or the NAG1's 3.59-0.83, so making the spread on a possible Tremec 4.3x-0.7x should improve efficiency and not compromise low end grunt for larger tyres etc.

I wouldn't be surprised if they do actually sacrifice the low-end for fuel efficiency, and make it something like 4.0x-0.69 to achieve better efficiency, especially when people wanting bigger tyres will usually swap out the axle gearing anyways to something like 4.56+. Thus making the platform more efficient and still giving owner the option to swap in low end oomph should they need it (easier to swap axle gears than transmission).


That would be my approach if it were up to me... well my second approach after going the 7-speed route to begin with.
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Old 06-11-2016, 11:31 PM   #7
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I hear the new manual tranny will have a splitter.
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Old 06-13-2016, 01:16 PM   #8
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I hear the new manual tranny will have a splitter.
LOL! Yeah, that would be awesome, and even more fun to watch someone encounter that for the first time.

I'd also love to see how they set up the hi-lo/over-under on that. It would be very interesting, but they aren't really all that light, so still don't see that as a good alternative to something simpler like a 7 or 8 speed refresh. If you're gonna design a new transmission you're really gonna go with gear splitting?'

I hadn't heard that rumour, the one I'd heard was more along the lines of a 4-speed transfer case but instead of three 4WD speeds like the Atlas-IV this setup would be more along the lines of a return of 2WD hi/lo with 4WD hi/lo. Which would accomplish the same thing as a splitter, just not in a continuous range.
Not sure how effective all that would be, and while it would be most beneficial when towing it seems that that was when 2Lo caused the most issues/damage in previous implementations like old CJs and having to run through 12+ gears to reach highway efficiency, that won't even be fun for people who like manual transmissions.
Also not sure if they could make it seamless enough to add enough benefit to warrant the added cost and complexity.

Dunno mang, it all sounds like the easiest solution would still be to pick a nice ZF-7 off the shelf and just pop it in there even if you don't leverage the platform to make an auto also.
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Old 06-17-2016, 01:21 AM   #9
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I don't know why anyone thinks they can get better mileage from an automatic... People just need to learn how to drive a manual properly is what I say. Every manual I've ever owned has always gotten much better mileage than stated on the window sticker. I will admit that the newer automatics are getting better than they used to be, but I can still beat them with the manual version of any car. Plus not to mention it's just so much easier and comfortable to drive a manual.
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Old 06-17-2016, 10:12 AM   #10
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Old Manual vs Auto isn't the same as New Manual vs Auto.

Previously you had scenarios like that found in the YJ with a 5-speed manual, and a 3-speed Auto, so the ratios & spread favoured the manual heavily, which is still somewhat present in the JK despite moving from a 4-speed auto to a 5-speed auto. However if we're stuck with the pokey NSG370 vs the 8-speed auto, I'm not sure that even the most experienced and smoothest of us gear rowers will be able to match the efficiency provide by a wider gear ratio spread, without auto rev-matching found in new manual transmissions.

The idea that all manuals would outperform all autos is rather simplistic, considering strapping in a 3-speed T-90A vs even the W5A580 let alone the ZF 8-speed, and you'd have trouble keeping up.

It's one thing to compare similar number of gears, but if there's a major imbalance in either numbers or spread, then it's hard to believe you can make up for that with your SSS Super-Shifting-Skillz.
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Old 06-17-2016, 10:20 AM   #11
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I posted this in another thread, but it seems germane to this one as well, ZF is making a modular 8-speed DCT transmission, developed by the same folks who made ZF-7 which has a manual option, which opens the door a sliver for the possibility of a modular manual 8-speed;

Press release: ZF Starts Production...ZF Friedrichshafen AG

Still doubtful, but it might be a mid-model refresh of be in time for the launch of the Pick-up.
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Old 06-17-2016, 10:41 AM   #12
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I posted this in another thread, but it seems germane to this one as well, ZF is making a modular 8-speed DCT transmission, developed by the same folks who made ZF-7 which has a manual option, which opens the door a sliver for the possibility of a modular manual 8-speed;

Press release: ZF Starts Production...ZF Friedrichshafen AG

Still doubtful, but it might be a mid-model refresh of be in time for the launch of the Pick-up.
Lets see in my youth I have driven "3 on a tree" not real good at it, 4 speed, 5 speed, haven't tried a 6 speed yet, cant imagine all the shifting for an 8 speed.
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Old 06-17-2016, 04:23 PM   #13
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Old Manual vs Auto isn't the same as New Manual vs Auto.

Previously you had scenarios like that found in the YJ with a 5-speed manual, and a 3-speed Auto, so the ratios & spread favoured the manual heavily, which is still somewhat present in the JK despite moving from a 4-speed auto to a 5-speed auto. However if we're stuck with the pokey NSG370 vs the 8-speed auto, I'm not sure that even the most experienced and smoothest of us gear rowers will be able to match the efficiency provide by a wider gear ratio spread, without auto rev-matching found in new manual transmissions.

The idea that all manuals would outperform all autos is rather simplistic, considering strapping in a 3-speed T-90A vs even the W5A580 let alone the ZF 8-speed, and you'd have trouble keeping up.

It's one thing to compare similar number of gears, but if there's a major imbalance in either numbers or spread, then it's hard to believe you can make up for that with your SSS Super-Shifting-Skillz.
Pretty much agree here. The only thing I would add is that hypothetically, manuals get better efficiency than autos. If you look at a case-by-case basis, then yes, sometimes the AT gets better efficiency than the MT in the same car, so you can't necessarily make a generalized statement.

Physically speaking though, MTs have slightly less drivetrain loss, so theoretically if you are designing 2 nearly identical transmissions with the same number of gears and gear ratios, the manual should be more efficient due to less drivetrain loss when all other variables are the same.

The C7 Corvette is a perfect demonstration that MTs can be more efficient than ATs. The 7-speed MT C7 gets better gas mileage than the 8-speed AT. The MT is a Tremec so you know its a good transmission, but I can't speak as to how good the GM 8-speed is. It may not be quite as efficient as the ZF 8-speed, thus if they had used the ZF 8-speed, maybe it would get the same efficiency as the 7-speed. Regardless, I'd say that the 7-speed getting better efficiency than the 8-speed is pretty impressive considering the gear disadvantage.

I am not here to say it is one way or the other, but some people have claimed there won't be a manual transmission in the JL due to CAFE. All I am saying is that is not really a valid argument because if designed correctly, there should be no negative consequences in terms of efficiency for a manual transmission.
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Old 06-17-2016, 04:32 PM   #14
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Lets see in my youth I have driven "3 on a tree" not real good at it, 4 speed, 5 speed, haven't tried a 6 speed yet, cant imagine all the shifting for an 8 speed.
I have driven both 5-speed and a 6-speed Wranglers. I don't think the 6-speed is any more difficult. I have also driven an F-250 diesel with a manual transmission. The shift pattern looks like this. Note I used periods as placeholders to show there is no gear in that position:

R 1 3 5
|-|-|-|
L 2 4 .

Now that took some getting used too, but I got the hang of it pretty quick. The difficult part is the extra branch of gears, which would be similar to having an 8 speed transmission, which I imagine would look something like this:

R 1 3 5 7
|-|-|-|-|
. 2 4 6 8

Since you haven't driven a 6-speed, it is kind of hard to explain, but that extra branch on the right (7th and 8th) is harder to shift into than the 5/6 branch. On the 6-speed, the R is in place of the 8, and obviously there is no 7. This makes it difficult to accidentally access the far right branch. The "center" is still the 3/4 branch.

You may think this would make it difficult to accelerate into 7th/8th gear, but realistically, both of those gears will be overdrive. Their only purpose would be for highway cruising, not for accelerating. There is no reason to quick shift into 7/8, so it wouldn't be an issue.

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