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Discussion Starter #21
There's nothing wrong with building for a look, you just have to be willing to accept the consequences. In this case a harsher ride. But hopefully it will ride well enough to fit your needs.

That lift will be just fine for you, and don't worry about the additional arms, you're building a street Jeep. Off road they're important because when you start stuffing the back tires they can rub. If/when you decide to take the Jeep on hard terrain then you can add more arms later. For a street Jeep I'm still a fan of the brackets, but if you got fixed arms you shouldn't run them.

IMO don't compare your Jeep to the jacked up Bro trucks, they're not the same creature. And no amount of awesome Bro truck will compare to you pulling up with no top and no doors. Lets see them try that! :p


Here's some stuff you don't want to hear: it sounds like you'll end up with a heavy wheel/tire combo. That will (<not can, will) wear down the stock components, so be prepared to replace those items when they fail, somewhere between 20k and 60k miles. For me it was:
  • The rear axle shaft flanges bent first, they bend under excess weight. The solution is aftermarket chromoloy shafts.
  • After that my ball joints failed, solution is aftermarket stronger ball joints.
  • Then my drag link end and tie rods ends failed, solution is stronger aftermarket ones.
  • Then we have unit bearings, they will fail every so often and there's no solution other than to change them out when they fail.
^some people see those as negatives, but it's the consequences of running a heavy wheel/tire combo. And it won't be a big deal if you're prepared ($$) for it. All of those things can be done with a jack, jack stands and common hand tools. There are videos that will show you how and it will help you get to know your Jeep. (y)


If you you have really deep pockets do like my buddy did for SEMA this year, build a big Bro truck (I believe that's 36" wheels on 42" tires) and a Jeep LOL

That bro truck is straight bad ass man. Damn. Also thank you for the list. I have screen shotted it and will keep that in mind. I was actually thinking about it last night. The wheels that I want to run are 43 lbs and the tires are 70lbs a piece. 113lbs ain’t light so I already bought the teraflex ball joints figuring the stocks won’t last long. Do you think I’d need the cromoly shafts if I don’t wheel at all? I was told that as long as I don’t wheel on a big offset setup the axle shafts should be ok. I also have 3.21 gears so I’m not expecting this thing to be a race car either 🤣
 

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Also not to add even more questions into the mix, but I see that evo offers a 3” enforcer lift with the plush coils. I could get the stage 2 kit with the 4 adjustable control arms and fox reservoirs for very close to the same price as I’m paying for the tf 3” with fixed flex arms and the falcon 3.1s. Would the evo and fox be a better option for soft road ride (like stock) or do I stay teraflex and falcon?
I have EVO stuff, I have their bolt on coil over kit front and rear. I have heard bad things about EVO control arms, but I don't run them so I can't say from personal experience. I can say from personal experience that my EVO coil over kit was a mix of good and bad. The good side is mainly on the functional side, it works well. The bad is mainly on the cosmetic side, the finish is a joke. The powder coating just flakes off, likely because the parts weren't prep'd before being powder coated. Another negative for my EVO coil over kit was the instructions on installation. I think they really don't intend for you to install it yourself. They seem to expect the people buying their kits to pay someone to install. What instructions they provide assume a lot of knowledge about how to install things. The "instructions" are more of a general guide. Also, the kit was poorly packaged, the hardware (nuts, bolts, washers, etc) were in bags, but there was no separation and nothing to indicate which hardware was for what aspect of the kit. Also, there were some aspects were I could not find anything in the hardware they sent that seemed appropriate for that aspect and I ended up using my own hardware, while other aspects seemed like they provided more hardware than required. Never a good feeling when you "finish" installing something only to have hardware left over....
That said, I would buy the EVO coil over kit again. I like it. But I wish it was better finished and better in the details.
And I still think you would be well served with either the Mopar 2" lift plus a set of Rancho geometry brackets or the AEV 2.5" lift and the same Rancho geometry brackets. Either will deliver a great ride, and more is just going to be spending more money than you need to spend to get that ride.
 

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Do you think I’d need the cromoly shafts if I don’t wheel at all? I was told that as long as I don’t wheel on a big offset setup the axle shafts should be ok.
113 pounds isn't light but it's not terribly heavy either. You might double check your weights, because the 35/13.5/20 Toyo OC MT is a little heavier than 70 pounds.

I think a pot hole at 75 mph is worse on the rear flanges than most wheeling.
Just keep an eye out for the signs and when they bend replace them.
 

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I would put on the Metal Cloak True Dual lift with the Rocksport shocks. Its everything you need for $1550. Sign up on their site for flash sales. Generally 10% off. Great riding kit for both on and off road. Coils are sized for weight so if you don't have big heavy bumpers and a winch you will get over 3" of actual lift. It comes with adjustable front uppers and track bar, you can aways add more arms to if you want in the future. They sell mainly direct and are made In the US. Many people overlook them because they are not in the Quadratec catalog.

Since you are building for looks consider some flat fenders as they give you the look of a 4" lift without affecting the ride and keep the lift on the lower side. The higher you go the more needs to be replaced to have a good on road ride. Its just a fact.

with 20's you may get credit with your bro trucks but you will get lots of (n) from jeep owners. Like others have said your ride will suffer a lot with 20's and E rated tires. Your jeep, your money, hope you have thick skin.

Good luck with the build.
 

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Discussion Starter #25
I have EVO stuff, I have their bolt on coil over kit front and rear. I have heard bad things about EVO control arms, but I don't run them so I can't say from personal experience. I can say from personal experience that my EVO coil over kit was a mix of good and bad. The good side is mainly on the functional side, it works well. The bad is mainly on the cosmetic side, the finish is a joke. The powder coating just flakes off, likely because the parts weren't prep'd before being powder coated. Another negative for my EVO coil over kit was the instructions on installation. I think they really don't intend for you to install it yourself. They seem to expect the people buying their kits to pay someone to install. What instructions they provide assume a lot of knowledge about how to install things. The "instructions" are more of a general guide. Also, the kit was poorly packaged, the hardware (nuts, bolts, washers, etc) were in bags, but there was no separation and nothing to indicate which hardware was for what aspect of the kit. Also, there were some aspects were I could not find anything in the hardware they sent that seemed appropriate for that aspect and I ended up using my own hardware, while other aspects seemed like they provided more hardware than required. Never a good feeling when you "finish" installing something only to have hardware left over....
That said, I would buy the EVO coil over kit again. I like it. But I wish it was better finished and better in the details.
And I still think you would be well served with either the Mopar 2" lift plus a set of Rancho geometry brackets or the AEV 2.5" lift and the same Rancho geometry brackets. Either will deliver a great ride, and more is just going to be spending more money than you need to spend to get that ride.
Know I may not be your fav but thank you for letting me know of this. I live in the northeast and the winters are horrible on paint. It sounds like the evo kit would be a pile of rust in 2 yrs on my rig. That is one of the main things that steered my away from RK. I’ve heard from many people that their entire lifts rust up in a matter of a yr if you live in the salt area due to their coating.

I know most people want me to do a 2.5 or 2” lift but it just doesn’t look right to me on 35s. There isn’t enough of a gap between tire and fender for me. If I wanted to run flats I would definitely go 2.5 but I paid an extra couple thousand for a Sahara so these color matched stock fenders are staying for a while. That’s why the 3” is so appealing to me. Also, it’s really just the teraflex 2.5 springs with a 1/2 inch spacer. That is teraflexs 3 inch kit.
 

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Discussion Starter #26
113 pounds isn't light but it's not terribly heavy either. You might double check your weights, because the 35/13.5/20 Toyo OC MT is a little heavier than 70 pounds.

I think a pot hole at 75 mph is worse on the rear flanges than most wheeling.
Just keep an eye out for the signs and when they bend replace them.
Not to change the thread subject but yes I was originally planning the Toyo mt 35x13.50r20 but after doing some searching online I found the atturo trail blade mts. In 35x12.50r20, they look literally identical to the toyos. They weigh 70 lbs a piece instead of the 79 of the toyos. Also half the price of the toyos. I was figuring they probably don’t balance out well being so cheap but the reviews look great for them. Seems like a no brainer.
 

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Also not to add even more questions into the mix, but I see that evo offers a 3” enforcer lift with the plush coils. I could get the stage 2 kit with the 4 adjustable control arms and fox reservoirs for very close to the same price as I’m paying for the tf 3” with fixed flex arms and the falcon 3.1s. Would the evo and fox be a better option for soft road ride (like stock) or do I stay teraflex and falcon?
I have the EVO 3” plush coils with the full set of 8 Teraflex fixed length flex arms. Rancho 9000 shocks. Also 35” tires, but 18” wheels. Perfect height with stock fenders. Caster is fine and axles are centered front and rear. Actually a pretty good setup. Looks good, nice street ride. We only get off the pavement a few times a year, but we’ve had zero issues on any trails in Moab the last few years.

I know the benefits of adjustable arms, but to me, it’s just one more thing to maintain. I’m not a Teraflex fan boy, but they did nail it with the Sports flex arms. Perfect for 2 1/2 - 3” of lift. Maintenance free.
 

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I run that lift - 65k miles on it no issues. Front track bar upgrade is a must, Front LCA highly recommended. Exhaust spacer - I dropped in an adams shaft, but wanted didn't need. Gears don't care how high you go, but running 35's you know the deal. Mine currently sitting on 315's (34.5"), waiting for Ridge Grappler's to be available. Yeah, MT's look better - but if you'll rarely offroad, go AT your ride wb much better. In Florida sand - my AT's work well. Build YOUR Jeep, everyone does it differently.
 

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Discussion Starter #29
I have the EVO 3” plush coils with the full set of 8 Teraflex fixed length flex arms. Rancho 9000 shocks. Also 35” tires, but 18” wheels. Perfect height with stock fenders. Caster is fine and axles are centered front and rear. Actually a pretty good setup. Looks good, nice street ride. We only get off the pavement a few times a year, but we’ve had zero issues on any trails in Moab the last few years.

I know the benefits of adjustable arms, but to me, it’s just one more thing to maintain. I’m not a Teraflex fan boy, but they did nail it with the Sports flex arms. Perfect for 2 1/2 - 3” of lift. Maintenance free.
Thank you for the feedback! I ended up calling teraflex when I was worried the other day and they said that with the falcon 3.1s I got, the ride should be pretty decent. They also said that they tried the geo brackets on the jk and it was too hard to fine tune so that’s why they created these fixed arms. I am pumped to hear that you like them. The kit I bought has the front lowers and rear uppers. I’m thinking about getting the rear lowers as well. The front uppers are the same length as stock just beefier so I don’t think I’d get any geometry benefit out of those. Does this all sound about right? Thanks again man!
 

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I run falcon 3.1 and love them. You will also get a better ride with the geo brackets vs the tf fixed length sport arms i have run both on 3 different rigs. you can not dial in fixed sport arms as like the name implies the length is fixed. The geo brackets actually have some adjustment. Both will give you acceptable caster on a 2.5-3” lift but for me the advantage goes to geobrackets and i swap back and forth every so often out of boredom. I had the Upper rear sport arms on my last two rubicons and did not bother to install them on my current one.
 

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Discussion Starter #31
I run falcon 3.1 and love them. You will also get a better ride with the geo brackets vs the tf fixed length sport arms i have run both on 3 different rigs. you can not dial in fixed sport arms as like the name implies the length is fixed. The geo brackets actually have some adjustment. Both will give you acceptable caster on a 2.5-3” lift but for me the advantage goes to geobrackets and i swap back and forth every so often out of boredom. I had the Upper rear sport arms on my last two rubicons and did not bother to install them on my current one.
Hell yea I’m pumped to hear you like the 3.1s. And it makes sense for sure if you are planning to change your lift down the road to a different size then geo brackets sound like the go to option. I however will be installing this Tera 3” lift and that’s gonna be it until I sell the thing to upgrade in maybe 3-4 yrs. With that in mind it sounds like the fixed arms will be the best bet for me since they were made specifically for this lift, I’m not looking to have to adjust anything or do matinence, and I’m not planning to ever change the lift size.

I could definitely see the arms not working out well if you try to put them on like a 2” lift or a 3.5” or something like that. I’ve heard from a couple people now that they will put me back to 4.5 caster with the 3” coils which I believe is what stock caster is. I’d figure if you only have a 2” lift on and try to put on the flex arms then you’d be at like 6 degrees of caster and it wouldn’t ride so well. Vice versa if you tried it with a 3.5” they’d make too little caster. That’s when the geos make sense. I may be wrong completely, that’s just what I’ve gathered so far.
 

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Hell yea I’m pumped to hear you like the 3.1s. And it makes sense for sure if you are planning to change your lift down the road to a different size then geo brackets sound like the go to option. I however will be installing this Tera 3” lift and that’s gonna be it until I sell the thing to upgrade in maybe 3-4 yrs. With that in mind it sounds like the fixed arms will be the best bet for me since they were made specifically for this lift, I’m not looking to have to adjust anything or do matinence, and I’m not planning to ever change the lift size.

I could definitely see the arms not working out well if you try to put them on like a 2” lift or a 3.5” or something like that. I’ve heard from a couple people now that they will put me back to 4.5 caster with the 3” coils which I believe is what stock caster is. I’d figure if you only have a 2” lift on and try to put on the flex arms then you’d be at like 6 degrees of caster and it wouldn’t ride so well. Vice versa if you tried it with a 3.5” they’d make too little caster. That’s when the geos make sense. I may be wrong completely, that’s just what I’ve gathered so far.
Whether or not you plan to change lifts or lift heights has nothing to do with whether or not geometry brackets are the better option.
Geometry brackets will simply deliver a better ride. Arms can correct caster, but they can't correct the angle the arms work at, their geometry.
And the more you lift, the more the geometry brackets will make a difference. You do need to correct your caster the right amount. Fixed arms tend to work best for a given range of lift, using fixed arms with more or less lift than they were designed for can give poor results. Brackets have multiple holes, you use the holes that give you the required amount of correction. Fixed arms simply need to be paired with the right lift height (the one they were designed for). But arms, fixed or adjustable, will not give you the ride quality that brackets will.
For what you are doing, geometry brackets will give you a better ride.
 

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Yesterday I actually typed out almost verbatim what Guzzi said but deleted it before sending i also mentioned a 2” lift could be the same as a 3” lift but decided not to even try and explain that Scenario.
 

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Discussion Starter #34
Whether or not you plan to change lifts or lift heights has nothing to do with whether or not geometry brackets are the better option.
Geometry brackets will simply deliver a better ride. Arms can correct caster, but they can't correct the angle the arms work at, their geometry.
And the more you lift, the more the geometry brackets will make a difference. You do need to correct your caster the right amount. Fixed arms tend to work best for a given range of lift, using fixed arms with more or less lift than they were designed for can give poor results. Brackets have multiple holes, you use the holes that give you the required amount of correction. Fixed arms simply need to be paired with the right lift height (the one they were designed for). But arms, fixed or adjustable, will not give you the ride quality that brackets will.
For what you are doing, geometry brackets will give you a better ride.
Interesting...since I’m already getting the fixed front lowers and rear uppers with my kit, would you recommend getting the Rancho geometry brackets as well on top of those?
 

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Discussion Starter #35
Yesterday I actually typed out almost verbatim what Guzzi said but deleted it before sending i also mentioned a 2” lift could be the same as a 3” lift but decided not to even try and explain that Scenario.
I’m aware that I may gain 3” of actual lift off of a 2” lift but that is not what I am using to make my decision. I made it based off of looks. The mopar 2” lift wether it gains 3” or not looks too little for 35s in my eyes. For some it may be perfect. Even a 2.5” and 35s just looks too small to me. The 3” and 3.5” kits with 35s looked perfect to me and considering that I will most definitely be moving to flats and 37s in a yr or two makes the 3” lift perfect for me. I’m sure I’ll get more than 3” of actual and that is fine, because based on looks the 3” kit and 35s on others jku’s it is exactly what I’m going for. That’s why I went with it.
 

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Interesting...since I’m already getting the fixed front lowers and rear uppers with my kit, would you recommend getting the Rancho geometry brackets as well on top of those?
No. It would be in place of the fixed length control arms. You can use geometry brackets with adjustable arms, as long as the adjustable arms allow you to adjust them to at or near stock length. But with fixed arms it would over correct the caster. But your fixed length arms will not correct the control arm geometry. And that will reduce your ride quality.

To be clear, a Mopar 2" lift is not a 2" lift, in spite of the name. It is a typical 2.5" lift, and as such typically lifts a JKU to 3" - 3.5" up front. It typically lifts a JK to 3.5" - 4" up front.
 

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Discussion Starter #37
No. It would be in place of the fixed length control arms. You can use geometry brackets with adjustable arms, as long as the adjustable arms allow you to adjust them to at or near stock length. But with fixed arms it would over correct the caster. But your fixed length arms will not correct the control arm geometry. And that will reduce your ride quality.

To be clear, a Mopar 2" lift is not a 2" lift, in spite of the name. It is a typical 2.5" lift, and as such typically lifts a JKU to 3" - 3.5" up front. It typically lifts a JK to 3.5" - 4" up front.
Sweet. Thank you for the knowledge. I’m starting to get all of this sorted out pretty well now I think. It looks like I’ll just be rolling with the fixed arms for now and if I hate it then in a yr or 2 I’ll upgrade to drop brackets and adjustables. I may have already asked you this but my kit comes with the front lowers and rear uppers. The front uppers are stock length so I wouldn’t gain any caster fix from those. But the rear lowers are longer than stock..should I grab those for wheelbase and pinion help or is it just a waste?
 

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no need for front uppers and really no need for rear lowers. won't hurt but not really needed. one has a mopar 2" the other TF 3"


 
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