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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hey Folks,

Is anyone on this forum interested in Water/Methanol injection? I have a supercharger and am in the middle of the WMI install using the Aquamist HFS4 system. I have a thread going on another forum but this forum seems to have more activity.

Is anyone here interested in that subject? I can make this an install thread and echo what I am doing over here.
 

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Discussion Starter · #2 ·
So nobody interested in an install thread? I will be happy to replicate it here.

My original thread is here (another forum):
Jeep on Meth: Aquamist HFS-4 Thread - JKowners.com : Jeep Wrangler JK Forum


Here are some pics to stimulate some conversation here. :)









The Aquamist system can be tapped into the Injector signal, plus the MAP sensor signal and it now has an AUX input that you can also pull in an IAT signal.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Extremely interesting. I read through your other thread, first time I've seen something like this on a jk. Your documentation and expertise is impressive. I'm sure others will jump in here to take a look
Thanks a lot. Any questions? :)

I am eager for the summer to see how it works on the trail, at altitude and in the heat.

If I ever pull the blower and go back to NA (even if only temporarily - say, while the blower is out being ported or something silly like that) I want to get the right jets and a tune and see how WMI works for NA. At a minimum, I think it would enable you to get crap 86 octane gas and run an aggressive 94 or better tune. That and it would lower IATs.

With this system, I can trigger the WMI at relatively low RPM, load and without boost. It is spraying and atomizing well for around town general driving without bogging the motor. While I have not done any logging yet and have no real evidence yet either, I do seem to be observing lower IAT readings.
 

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Huh?
See if I even knew what you were talking about Id be interested..lol
I see we may be talking about Supercharger?
Im unsure whether your adding a burning mixture or a cooling one?
So thats how stupid I am...
 

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I use an alky control kit in my Z06 with a magnussen . Had a stainless tank fabbed up and located it in the batt tray then relocated the batt to the trunk. Works great as long as you have a good tune. Got me 75 hp with a conservative tune.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Yes, you do really need a tune to fully take advantage of it.

With straight water, you can get by without a tune if you tune it yourself. If your tune is already good to begin with then all you should have to do in a tune is advance the ignition timing for pure water. You can do that on your own with a Trinity (and probably other dash tuners). The Trinity allows you to go up to 10 degrees in three different RPM bands. I suppose that once you figure out the timing, you can have your tuner (person) hard code the timing advance in an actual tune file.

Once methanol is sprayed in, then the mixture changes. It gets too fat and you will loose HP unless you lean out the fuel. This is the other reason you need a tune (first to put some ignition timing in and then to lean it back out). I do not know how much more timing advance you can get when adding methanol to the mix if any. It is my understanding that detonation can actually INCREASE with pure methanol and why 50/50 brings you the best of both worlds.

I have heard of Alky Control and know they have a good reputation. Just not sure how that system works.

Many of the systems out there use only MAP and by tying into the injector duty cycle as well or instead of, you can start spraying sooner and before you boost.

Other systems also vary the spray by varying the pump speed/pressure. Aquamist does it differently and it is more like your fuel injection system. They maintain constant line pressure and use a metering valve to meter the fluid in via pulse width modulation (again - just like your fuel injection). The result is much better atomization at lower flows. The mist spray is consistent. With the pump speed control, the spray pattern gets weird and drips at lower flow (not as good at atomization).

Here are some videos comparing pulse width modulation to pump speed control.

https://youtu.be/3xuAPg1FnGk

https://youtu.be/_HQMTfybwaA

https://youtu.be/xvSNmn6A64M
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Alky control is good stuff. With that being said I wouldn't mess with meth any longer. if you can get good e85 that's the hot set up now.
Probably I will just buy premixed boost juice or the Banks stuff. That or run pure water.

e85 is not a good solution. It is harder to get. Your system also has to be built for it and once you tune for it, you use a lot more fuel and reduce your already bad fuel range even further.
 

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Probably I will just buy premixed boost juice or the Banks stuff. That or run pure water.

e85 is not a good solution. It is harder to get. Your system also has to be built for it and once you tune for it, you use a lot more fuel and reduce your already bad fuel range even further.
Here in Michigan E85 is everywhere. You can buy a tester so you can check the level of meth. Summer months e90 is standard, winter e70 ish which is not good. there are dozens of mustangs making 700-1000 rwhp on e85.
 

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Huh?
See if I even knew what you were talking about Id be interested..lol
I see we may be talking about Supercharger?
Im unsure whether your adding a burning mixture or a cooling one?
So thats how stupid I am...
I'm in the same boat here...

I saw the original thread over on JKO and wanted to be interested, but having absolutely no background in this type of modification, I'm totally lost.

x2 to his question- is this a burning mixture or a cooling mixture you're injecting?

How does pure water give more power?

I WANT TO UNDERSTAND! THIS LOOKS NEAT BUT I AM A NOOB
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Here in Michigan E85 is everywhere. You can buy a tester so you can check the level of meth. Summer months e90 is standard, winter e70 ish which is not good. there are dozens of mustangs making 700-1000 rwhp on e85.
Then I can appreciate the popularity. It still reduces your mileage and range. It also does not provide the intake charge temp reductions that spraying does.

If I run out of juice or the system fails, I can just shut the system off and revert the tune in a pinch.

Swapping fuels and a tune is a pain in the neck. I have doe that already with a 100 octane tune that I have.

I'm in the same boat here...

I saw the original thread over on JKO and wanted to be interested, but having absolutely no background in this type of modification, I'm totally lost.

x2 to his question- is this a burning mixture or a cooling mixture you're injecting?

How does pure water give more power?

I WANT TO UNDERSTAND! THIS LOOKS NEAT BUT I AM A NOOB
First, let me start by explaining how the handheld tuners make the small amount of power that they do. Much of what they do is simply advance the ignition timing by a degree or three. This starts the burn sooner. You can only advance the timing so much or you will get detonation (AKA "pinging" or the older term from aviation "pinking").

You are only going to get so much timing advance and extra HP from an 86 octane tune. Maybe 1-2 degrees at best. They might richen up the top end mixture to compensate for CAIs as well.

There are a few ponies left on the table with our Jeep pentastars versus the same motor in other vehicles. Some of that comes from a different intake manifold (upper or lower - don't remember). I think the tuning devices give Jeep owners another 5HP back here.

I can see how a "best fuel economy tune" would advance the timing a little further at the expense of logging more KNK RETARD when you romp on the throttle. The assumption is that you won't.

If you look at the HP numbers that the tuning device vendors post, you will see the gains are really with the 91 and 93 octane tunes. This is because they can advance your ignition timing even more in these tunes.

Spraying water, methanol or both down your engine's intake really just take this a step further. This cools the intake charge before it reaches the cylinder and slows the burn (methanol also reduces the in cylinder temps), which in turn reduces detonation. Water actually cools better than methanol and methanol actually causes more detonation than water but you get better in cylinder cooling with methanol. The ideal scenario is to use the best of both worlds and run a 50/50 (non-flammable) mix.

With 100% water, you just need to tune your ignition timing advance to get the most out of it - assuming you had a dialed in tune to begin with.

When you bring meth in, your AFR (air fuel ratio) changes and you essentially richen ("fatten up") the mixture so you would need to tune for that too.

What does all that mean? It means significantly reduce IATs when the heat is absorbed into the water and then evaporated into the rest of the hot intake and combustion chamber. The resulting reduction in detonation gives you the equivalent of ~110+ octane fuel. In other words, you can advance your ignition timing by a significant amount and make some power.

For a naturally aspirated car, there would be a gain if you get a tune but it would be minimal. I would guess that it would be something more than a canned tune in a tuner or even an email tune because you would be able to advance your ignition timing.

Now when we start talking about forced induction, what you need to understand here is that when you are forcing more compressed, hot air into your engine, you significantly increase the risk of detonation and the ignition timing has to be backed WAY off in the accompanying tune that you get. Adding intercoolers and/or water injection are ways to reduce detonation and bring that ignition timing back to stock.

Water injection was first pioneered a few short years before 1941 (Jeep birth year) by Sir Harry Ricardo as a way to decrease pinking in airplane engines at altitude.


Bringing it to the here and now....

Now that I am spraying, I have already used the Diablosport Trinity to tweak my ignition timing up quite a bit. What you monitor on your tuner is the LT KNK RETARD and the ST KNK RETARD (long term and short term knock retard).

When we tuned for timing in the bad old days, we would crank up ignition timing (twist the distributer) until we thought we heard an engine ping and then back it off a degree at a time until it stopped.

In the modern era, we do this by watching for when the PCM pulls timing - that's bad.

While I am an experience old hand at tuning and am someone who has drilled out carburetor jets and bored out venturies, I am still a little new to tuning in the modern era so have to do a lot of reading on various boards as well as ask questions to my tuner (the person, not the device). My understanding is that the goals for short term and long term knock retard are zero degrees in long term and anywhere from 2.5-4 to maybe as high as 5 or so on short term knock retard.

To give you an idea of how much ignition advance I just got....
I already have a custom tune on my Edelbrock supercharger, which I presume has more ignition timing advance than the canned Edelbrock tune. It is a 91 octane tune. Now that the WMI system is installed (same base tune), I cranked up the timing. I am already at 8* of advance across all three RPM bands and am triggering occasionally as high as 3.5* short term retard.

The RPM bands that you can tune for are:

1k-3.8k RPM
4k-4.8k RPM
5k-7k RPM

I have not captured any logs yet but I think that I am triggering the ST RETARD in the middle RPM range. This means that I might be able to back off the timing by a degree in the mid band and possible advance it in the upper and lower bands.

edit:
Here is a little video of the test spray....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5s7FxRkqhwA
 

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@PetrichorJeep
Thanks for the explanation! As much as I'd love to do something like this, I'm probably a few years out experience-wise and money-wise before I start looking at something like this, but it's good to know there are people like you on the boards to ask questions when the time comes!
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Bottom line is that it allows you to advance your timing as if you had race gas in tank and that is how you are making power.

I know that the common thought is that WMI on a naturally aspirated car won't male any power but I do not completely agree with that.

My argument is this.... With handheld tuners you can make a little power by using a higher octane tune and getting more advanced ignition timing in the tune. What I propose is that you can take that even further with even just water injection because you are effectively getting even higher octane than 94 pump gas and can therefore get more timing advance in a tune. I am not going to go so far as to say big power but something more than what you get with the tuning device and a hotter tune alone. I am already at 9* of additional advance, for example, across two of the three RPM bands and that is *with* the blower.

I am a little sorry that I did not install the Aquamist kit before the Edelbrock blower because it would have been fun to experiment with WMI while NA.

The way I have it configured now, it is not just spraying while I am under boost. It fades in sooner than that because it is tied into the injector signal and will always be a certain percentage of the fuel being sprayed y the main injectors.
 

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Hello! I'm new to the forum and not from the US, so please excuse me if anything I say doesn't sound right.
I live in a very hot country with lots of traffic, so the conditions are a little hard on the jeep and to bring temperatures down and get a little better fuel economy I've been looking into this.
What system do you recommend? I plan on using this tuner to get the best results I can, and yes I've been briefly trained to use this.
HPTuners.com >> Performance At Your Fingertips
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Hello! I'm new to the forum and not from the US, so please excuse me if anything I say doesn't sound right.
I live in a very hot country with lots of traffic, so the conditions are a little hard on the jeep and to bring temperatures down and get a little better fuel economy I've been looking into this.
What system do you recommend? I plan on using this tuner to get the best results I can, and yes I've been briefly trained to use this.
HPTuners.com >> Performance At Your Fingertips
You are NA and not FI?

Definitely look to this as more of an octane booster than anything else. It should eliminate any detonation issues and could give you a little more power if accompanied by a tune that advances your ignition timing.

First, I recommend one that uses the injector duty signal to scale up the flow. This way, once you select the correct jet size, it is pretty much controlled by your original PCM. Aquamist is a good brand that will allow you to trigger and meter the flow using the IDC versus a MAP signal.

If you spry straight water and do not get tune then you will just eliminate most if not all of your detonation.

You can get a tuning device and tune the WOT parameters to give yourself more ignition advance when you have the pedal to the metal. Under normal driving, the PCM is in closed loop and you won't be getting any additional advance.

If you can, get a tune that adjusts the base ignition maps too. This way they can give you a higher octane tune that will work better in closed loop.

You can probably get more HP by running a MW50 mix. Don't bother with pure methanol.

Spray just water and you can advance your timing. Your AFR probably won't change much if at all on just water by altering the timing.

If you add methanol to the mix then you will need to tweak AFRs, which means wide band o2 or a dyno tune.

For you, I would just do a straight water sprayer (maybe with washer fluid - 25% methanol by weight) and call it a day. Detonation issue solved.

You can probably get the less expensive Aquamist HFS3. There may still be an HFS2 sitting out on a store shelf somewhere.
 

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You are NA and not FI?

Definitely look to this as more of an octane booster than anything else. It should eliminate any detonation issues and could give you a little more power if accompanied by a tune that advances your ignition timing.

First, I recommend one that uses the injector duty signal to scale up the flow. This way, once you select the correct jet size, it is pretty much controlled by your original PCM. Aquamist is a good brand that will allow you to trigger and meter the flow using the IDC versus a MAP signal.

If you spry straight water and do not get tune then you will just eliminate most if not all of your detonation.

You can get a tuning device and tune the WOT parameters to give yourself more ignition advance when you have the pedal to the metal. Under normal driving, the PCM is in closed loop and you won't be getting any additional advance.

If you can, get a tune that adjusts the base ignition maps too. This way they can give you a higher octane tune that will work better in closed loop.

You can probably get more HP by running a MW50 mix. Don't bother with pure methanol.

Spray just water and you can advance your timing. Your AFR probably won't change much if at all on just water by altering the timing.

If you add methanol to the mix then you will need to tweak AFRs, which means wide band o2 or a dyno tune.

For you, I would just do a straight water sprayer (maybe with washer fluid - 25% methanol by weight) and call it a day. Detonation issue solved.

You can probably get the less expensive Aquamist HFS3. There may still be an HFS2 sitting out on a store shelf somewhere.
Thank you! Yes that's the exact kind of thing I was thinking of, there's also an AEM unit that uses the IDC signal to control injection, and I'm getting the tuner soon to adjust timings, AFRs, and some tranny characteristics as well. May have it ready by the end of the year. Might dyno it at a friends' shop.:iamhappy:
 
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