5spd or auto
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Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Jeep stalls when stopping after driving distance at high speed
Long detailed post ahead. Thanks for reading!
2001 TJ automatic, 4.88 gears (relevant for the speed figures below)
BACKGROUND:
I spent a ton of time late 2021 and half 2022 trying to troubleshoot a misfire issue. Replaced just about every sensor; Mopar replacements where possible, forum recommendations otherwise. Here's a link to my original thread on this. Misfire refuses to go away
I ended up taking my Jeep to an area diagnostic mechanic who, after keeping at the shop for nearly a month, returned it to me sorted. Based on their description of the problem, it came down to the crankshaft position sensor and camshaft sensor being out of sync. But it sounded like they had struggles getting that corrected. Through the latter part of 2022 and all through winter it had been running great, but I've recently started having some interesting trouble. I don't know if my current issue is related but it's hard to believe it's not.
ISSUE:
The problem seems to be heat related. Not that the Jeep gets particularly hot, temps are normal, but the problem is certainly worse when driving on the freeway compared to taking back roads or putting around town. I can drive around all day on city streets and easy trails no problem, when I start to drive distances is when I start seeing issues.
If I take backroads between home and work, roughly 25 miles at 50mph average, as long as I don't come to a stop there is no apparent problem. Once I come to a stop, it will idle ok briefly then start rumbling (feels like a bad misfire) and die. If pop into neutral and come to the stop out of gear, it will likely behave normally, maybe a slightly rough idle. Typically, if it dies, it will start right back up and drive off like nothing happened... until the next stop. Rinse and repeat.
Slightly different story if I take the freeway (70mph speed limit) for the same home to work drive. Again, until I come to a stop, there are no apparent problems. I could probably put hours of road behind me at speed. This is where things are different; when I come to a stop it will just die, no rumbling, no neutral roll to keep it running, it just dies. Unlike the lower speed drive, unless I get lucky it will not start right back up, it will just crank and crank and crank. Even then, I have to rev the engine and slam into gear to get moving. I've had to wait up to 30 minutes or so before getting the chance to drive off.
Through all of this I've only had a code pop on time during one of the slower drives; P0352 (Ignition coil 2 circuit). I had a spare coil rail on hand so I went ahead and swapped it, but the drama continues.
One thing I'll note but I'm not sure it's related. When get in to start up, its hit or miss whether it's going to crank for a bit before firing or whether it's going to fire right up.
If you're still here, thanks so much! Hopefully you have some insight or can get some help from the thread if you're facing similar issues.
2001 TJ automatic, 4.88 gears (relevant for the speed figures below)
BACKGROUND:
I spent a ton of time late 2021 and half 2022 trying to troubleshoot a misfire issue. Replaced just about every sensor; Mopar replacements where possible, forum recommendations otherwise. Here's a link to my original thread on this. Misfire refuses to go away
I ended up taking my Jeep to an area diagnostic mechanic who, after keeping at the shop for nearly a month, returned it to me sorted. Based on their description of the problem, it came down to the crankshaft position sensor and camshaft sensor being out of sync. But it sounded like they had struggles getting that corrected. Through the latter part of 2022 and all through winter it had been running great, but I've recently started having some interesting trouble. I don't know if my current issue is related but it's hard to believe it's not.
ISSUE:
The problem seems to be heat related. Not that the Jeep gets particularly hot, temps are normal, but the problem is certainly worse when driving on the freeway compared to taking back roads or putting around town. I can drive around all day on city streets and easy trails no problem, when I start to drive distances is when I start seeing issues.
If I take backroads between home and work, roughly 25 miles at 50mph average, as long as I don't come to a stop there is no apparent problem. Once I come to a stop, it will idle ok briefly then start rumbling (feels like a bad misfire) and die. If pop into neutral and come to the stop out of gear, it will likely behave normally, maybe a slightly rough idle. Typically, if it dies, it will start right back up and drive off like nothing happened... until the next stop. Rinse and repeat.
Slightly different story if I take the freeway (70mph speed limit) for the same home to work drive. Again, until I come to a stop, there are no apparent problems. I could probably put hours of road behind me at speed. This is where things are different; when I come to a stop it will just die, no rumbling, no neutral roll to keep it running, it just dies. Unlike the lower speed drive, unless I get lucky it will not start right back up, it will just crank and crank and crank. Even then, I have to rev the engine and slam into gear to get moving. I've had to wait up to 30 minutes or so before getting the chance to drive off.
Through all of this I've only had a code pop on time during one of the slower drives; P0352 (Ignition coil 2 circuit). I had a spare coil rail on hand so I went ahead and swapped it, but the drama continues.
One thing I'll note but I'm not sure it's related. When get in to start up, its hit or miss whether it's going to crank for a bit before firing or whether it's going to fire right up.
If you're still here, thanks so much! Hopefully you have some insight or can get some help from the thread if you're facing similar issues.
1 - 20 of 22 Posts
It’s an automatic. Don’t know if it would be relevant at all to your follow up, but the transmission was rebuilt less then 5000 miles ago.
In the 25 miles at 50 mph with the rinse and repeat, does it gradually straightne itself out or does it continue the entire trip once the problem starts?
Typically, after I’ve gone for the longer drives I stick to city streets at like 25-40mph. That said, no, I haven’t noticed it improve driving through town. Every stop, idle goes down hill then dies, it will start back up and I can drive fine til the next stop. If I park for a bit for some shopping or like lunch it will be back to no problems.In the 25 miles at 50 mph with the rinse and repeat, does it gradually straightne itself out or does it continue the entire trip once the problem starts?
My first thought is any time something is worked on and then later my vehicle acts up, I go back to whatever was worked on last that might be related. In this case it sounds like that would be the crank and cam sensors as I am thinking either could break down. I would first check connections and then perhaps consider replacing, although it goes completely against my grain to replace parts without a clear diagnosis. In this case, I think you could even have a PCM that is getting glizy, but I would not leap to replacing it yet.
Since heat increases resistance in virtually everything electronic, the field of bad actors in very broad.
The problem I always have with codes is they really do not point to particular part as much as they indicate function of a group of related parts. The lack of responses suggests to me folks are scratching their heads on this one.
Since heat increases resistance in virtually everything electronic, the field of bad actors in very broad.
The problem I always have with codes is they really do not point to particular part as much as they indicate function of a group of related parts. The lack of responses suggests to me folks are scratching their heads on this one.
If only you knew what I've been through with this thing.My first thought is any time something is worked on and then later my vehicle acts up, I go back to whatever was worked on last that might be related. In this case it sounds like that would be the crank and cam sensors as I am thinking either could break down. I would first check connections and then perhaps consider replacing, although it goes completely against my grain to replace parts without a clear diagnosis. In this case, I think you could even have a PCM that is getting glizy, but I would not leap to replacing it yet.
Since heat increases resistance in virtually everything electronic, the field of bad actors in very broad.
The problem I always have with codes is they really do not point to particular part as much as they indicate function of a group of related parts. The lack of responses suggests to me folks are scratching their heads on this one.
I've been through many crank sensors and a couple cam sensors. Both from the full gamut of manufacturers, Mopar sensors are installed now. I have 3 PCMs at this point; 2 from Wrangler Fix and the original. Injectors have been replaced and heat shielding installed as it was suggested at one point issues could be at the injectors. O2 sensors are relatively new NTKs. Engine harness replaced with a junkyard pull, just to try. New battery... Apart from some sections of the wiring and the alternator, most of the engine electrical system has been touched.
I'm not relying on codes to tell me anything at this point. It's down to voodoo I think. Pretty sure I did something to someone who's cursed me to never have a well operating Jeep.
Does this feel more to you like a fueling issue in terms of the rough runnng?
Certainly seems possible, specially considering the heat factor. The fuel pump and injectors have been replaced and insulation has been installed, so it's difficult to focus there.Does this feel more to you like a fueling issue in terms of the rough runnng?
My feeling is that this is an electrical issue; I'm about ready to just pull all the harnesses out and go through them with a fine toothed comb to check all the wiring. At the same time, I want to take the extreme of ripping out the engine and harness and get into an LS swap. Despite the fact that this is a project vehicle for me, I'm hesitant to get into that work right now.
My question was very clear. I was thinking fuel versus ignition and am trying to thinking of electrical components that might get glitzy with heat and either reduce or stop the fuel supply. There was an interesting post a few days ago about how the resistance in fuses can change and I had that post in mind, but have to find it and reread it.
I know problems like this are akin to five levels of Hell. You are more persistent than I in that I would have sold your Jeep for parts long ago!
I know problems like this are akin to five levels of Hell. You are more persistent than I in that I would have sold your Jeep for parts long ago!
That should have read "My question wasn't very clear". Sorry for the typo!
The pcm issue is a 05-06 issue
Idle maintained via IAC so that is where I would be looking
Idle maintained via IAC so that is where I would be looking
The idle air control can be tested. Here is a link explaining how to go about it https://www.carparts.com/blog/symptoms-of-a-bad-idle-air-control-valve/
I think anything electrical that can affect the injectors is in the hunt. I suspect having a bidirectional scanner would be a significant advantage in troubleshooting this problem.
Given the problem seems to vary with heat, I do not think this is a harness issue. A plus is so many components have already been replaced my inclination would be to assume for now, they are good. If this Jeep will idle enough to continue to run, but still runs rough, I would use a scan tool with live data capability to verify the problem is fuel related.
My guess is eventhough maddening to diagnosis, this problem has a simple cause.
I think anything electrical that can affect the injectors is in the hunt. I suspect having a bidirectional scanner would be a significant advantage in troubleshooting this problem.
Given the problem seems to vary with heat, I do not think this is a harness issue. A plus is so many components have already been replaced my inclination would be to assume for now, they are good. If this Jeep will idle enough to continue to run, but still runs rough, I would use a scan tool with live data capability to verify the problem is fuel related.
My guess is eventhough maddening to diagnosis, this problem has a simple cause.
I read the entirety of the linked thread in your post which ended with a post that you felt your problem was cured using a Mopar crank sensor I believe it was. Is this post a continuation of the earlier problem which included a buttload of replacment parts and ultimately a motor swap or is this a new problem?
If it weren't for the work I've put into the rest of it I'm certain that would have been done! I love this vehicle, it just needs to act right.I know problems like this are akin to five levels of Hell. You are more persistent than I in that I would have sold your Jeep for parts long ago!
Wow, thanks for taking the time to go through that! It's a long one. In my mind, all that ordeal proved is that the engine is not the problem.I read the entirety of the linked thread in your post which ended with a post that you felt your problem was cured using a Mopar crank sensor I believe it was. Is this post a continuation of the earlier problem which included a buttload of replacment parts and ultimately a motor swap or is this a new problem?
So, it was presenting differently, but I think it's a continuation. That thread ended in July, '22, not long after my final post there the same symptoms returned. Fed up, I searched for a local mechanic who was willing to go beyond reading codes and using the book to recommend work. They had it at their shop for nearly a month before telling me they had it corrected; they said it was crankshaft sensor and cam sensor out of sync. I didn't drive it a ton after I got it back or through the winter, but it never presented any problems when I did. Since it's warming up now, the Jeep is getting more road time... and we're back to issues. I'll add some more details of what I've done recently and where things stand.
Assuming electrical issues, particularly related to the CKP, I thought I'd try swapping in a different one I had laying around to see if anything changes. Apparently that was a bad Idea, because I'm back to the condition I had in my old thread, I can't run at highway speeds. Although, this time I can be more precise about what is happening. Why is still a mystery.
What I'm experiencing can be predictably replicated at specific RPM, I've confirmed that theory on highway and on town roads. Right around 3500 RPM, the engine light will start flashing and power drops out dramatically. On the highway, I hit that RPM right around 63 MPH. I'm forced to take the speed down to about 55 and limp off of the highway with the engine light flashing the whole way and a serious loss of power. When I can come to a stop the engine is clearly misfiring badly. Turn the engine off and back on again and all clear, carry on like nothing was wrong, no misfires, plenty of power and engine light is steady with the stored codes. I get the same behavior, only at lower speeds, if I run second gear and push to 3500 RPM. As soon as it get there power falls out and engine light is flashing until I stop and restart the engine.
The codes that come up are misfire (P030X) on random cylinders, could be one or many and they are typically never the same between runs.
I agree 100%, it's infuriating trying something to correct it, going for a drive and getting the same result. I'll probably have trust issues with this thing for the rest of eternity.My guess is eventhough maddening to diagnosis, this problem has a simple cause.
Here is a question. When you get the flashing signal have you ever had your scanner connected and had someone look at it to see if it shows anything, especially if running live data?
Can you shed any more light on this comment in your post about this "they said it was crankshaft sensor and cam sensor out of sync". Did they said the timing chain jumped a tooth? I don't understand what this means.
Since problems like this fascinate me, I have been doing more reading and youtubes and my money now is on the cam shaft position sensor or parts related to it. I can't recall seeing if you mentioned how many miles are on your Jeep. I see in your post that you have replaced the cam shaft position sensor multiple times, but is that any looseness or play in the distributor or distributor parts themselves?
Since problems like this fascinate me, I have been doing more reading and youtubes and my money now is on the cam shaft position sensor or parts related to it. I can't recall seeing if you mentioned how many miles are on your Jeep. I see in your post that you have replaced the cam shaft position sensor multiple times, but is that any looseness or play in the distributor or distributor parts themselves?
It's been a long time and I haven't had live data evaluated by anyone I would consider professional. Oh, I just remembered, I have graphs from early on! Around May last year.Here is a question. When you get the flashing signal have you ever had your scanner connected and had someone look at it to see if it shows anything, especially if running live data?
You'll notice the RPMs are lower than what I indicated in my last post, but the behavior was the same. Driving along, things get wonky, engine light flashing and misfires are present. Shutdown, restart, drive away. You'll also notice the oxygen sensor readings get wonky before fuel trim going flat. As I understand it, neither of those things should happen. At least not after going into closed loop operation. Oxygen sensors should read a steady wave and fuel trim shouldn't go flat.
The question I have on that is why? Why would the PCM make a decision to cut fuel trim in relation to the oxygen sensor readings going amiss? Also, why would the oxygen sensors go wild like that? Might be time for new data.
Yes, the oxygen sensors have been replaced... with NTK sensors.
Something I meant to mention in the last post is that when mounting mounting the CKP, letting it rest against the tone ring (with the paper spacer of course), will not get things running at all. I've had to pull the sensor back in the mounting position on the bell housing to get things running semi-ok.Can you shed any more light on this comment in your post about this "they said it was crankshaft sensor and cam sensor out of sync". Did they said the timing chain jumped a tooth? I don't understand what this means.
Since problems like this fascinate me, I have been doing more reading and youtubes and my money now is on the cam shaft position sensor or parts related to it. I can't recall seeing if you mentioned how many miles are on your Jeep. I see in your post that you have replaced the cam shaft position sensor multiple times, but is that any looseness or play in the distributor or distributor parts themselves?
The PCM can compensate for the OPDA (the cam sensor is on top of this part) being a few degrees off. It cannot compensate for bad readings from the CKP. My understanding of what the mechanic told me was that they thought the OPDA needed to be adjusted a few degrees and that between that and small adjustments in the position of the CKP, that was the fix. No, they didn't mention anything about the timing chain. Also, keep in mind, this problem has persisted through separate engines. The engine swap was before going to the mechanic.
The cam sensor has been replaced multiple times, I replaced the OPDA when I swapped the motors. Nothing is loose in these components.
If I understand correctly, the OPDA is driven directly off the camshaft. If something had failed there, this would be a much larger problem right? Or could you see something like this by some minor imperfection?
I think your cam sensor is out of sync again. I watched an excellent youtube video showing how a garage struggled with the kind of situation you are having and what they had to do to get their OPDA back in sync. Unfortunately I didn't save it. I was struck when reading over your posts again that syncing the system fixed the problem for a significant period of time. I would not replace any parts yet, but I am thinking the problem is more RPM than temperature based. You can replicate the problem in your driveway by just reving your engine for a period of time right?
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