Limp mode on a manual

20665 Views 60 Replies 11 Participants Last post by WillysGal, Aug 11, 2014

Black_and_Tan

Discussion Starter · Jun 23, 2014

I was driving on an easy trail earlier today, but hit a bump or rut with some force. The jeep made a jeep, the ESC Malfunction and MIL Lights illuminated, and limp mode was enabled, or what I believe to be limp mode: power drops off in all gears at 3k.

I am going to the dealer tomorrow; just happened to have an appointment.

Any thoughts on what is going on.

My limited searching resulted in auto transmission limps.

I doubt there is any causal relationship, but:

1) Earlier today I pulled out a stuck F150. Low 1st easy pull, no jerking or other "violence."

2) Saturday I got stuck in sand down to the frame, and needed to be pulled out with a winch.

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Black_and_Tan

Discussion Starter · #41 · Jul 24, 2014

Bent jeep said:
Dude, sounds like they are treating you right!

Absolutely agree. The service department has been good; no complaints from me.

But, I fear my relationship with the dealer is about to be tested (see below

).

WillysGal said:
That would be quite a fluke unless something is making the sensor go bad....if that's even possible.

Agree. The root cause of the problem is still unknown (see below

).

***********************

Dealer called me today, and said that a tech took the jeep off-road on a bumpy rutted road. The tech did not trigger the error lamps on his drive, and believed the jeep to be fixed.

I asked the SA if he was confident that the jeep was indeed fixed, and he did agree that the matter was resolved to the dealer's best ability.

The error lamps illuminated on my drive home, so I will now have to schedule the fourth repair appointment for the same problem.

My understanding of the AZ Lemon law is that if the fourth attempt to repair the problem fails, I can seek legal relief.

But, that is not my desire. Problem is that I am no longer confident that the dealer will find the root cause this 4th time.

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WillysGal

· #42 · Jul 24, 2014

Black_and_Tan said:
Absolutely agree. The service department has been good; no complaints from me. But, I fear my relationship with the dealer is about to be tested (see below ). Agree. The root cause of the problem is still unknown (see below ). *********************** Dealer called me today, and said that a tech took the jeep off-road on a bumpy rutted road. The tech did not trigger the error lamps on his drive, and believed the jeep to be fixed. I asked the SA if he was confident that the jeep was indeed fixed, and he did agree that the matter was resolved to the dealer's best ability. The error lamps illuminated on my drive home, so I will now have to schedule the fourth repair appointment for the same problem. My understanding of the AZ Lemon law is that if the fourth attempt to repair the problem fails, I can seek legal relief. But, that is not my desire. Problem is that I am no longer confident that the dealer will find the root cause this 4th time.

Jeez, that is crazy. Tell them to call jeep for insight if they can't figure it out. You could order a new Willys tho....your dealer needs to dig deeper.

NoGaBiker

· #43 · Jul 24, 2014

B&T, at this point, are you not able to just drive directly to dealer, do not pass go, do not collect $200, the moment the lights come on? Seems like it would be in their interest as well as yours for you to get some sort of written "skip to front of line" so you don't have to make an appt. for five days out when this happens to you.

Best of luck -- frustrating, I know. The good news is, it sounds like it's becoming more frequent. If so, it's probably trending towards a state where it just stays broken, and you don't have to do anything magic to make it come on. Then they can keep replacing parts till they actually fix the problem.

Ivoryring

· #44 · Jul 24, 2014

My understanding is that if the computer decides to command the MIL (multifunction inidcator light - which happens to look like an engine, and most people call check-engine-light) in solid mode, it will stay lit for 3 (could be a different number, but it's not many) 'start engine' cycles after the error condition goes away. This matches one of the symptoms that you described, and your dealer service department may have mentioned this to you already.

If the MIL is on solid, the computer is telling you "schedule a service appointment at your convenience". If the MIL goes into flashing mode, rather than solidly lit, that is the computer telling you "get the Jeep to service immediately!"

In any case, good luck with getting assigned a meticulous tech at your dealership that will stick with this problem to get it resolved for you.

Black_and_Tan

Discussion Starter · #45 · Jul 24, 2014

WillysGal said:
Jeez, that is crazy. Tell them to call jeep for insight if they can't figure it out. You could order a new Willys tho....your dealer needs to dig deeper.

I think we are close to the point of a replacement vehicle. Not sure what the dealer will do the fourth time that they have not tried the first three times. I do have an open customer service ticket with Jeep, so perhaps they will recommend some options.

NoGaBiker said:
B&T, at this point, are you not able to just drive directly to dealer, do not pass go, do not collect $200, the moment the lights come on? Seems like it would be in their interest as well as yours for you to get some sort of written "skip to front of line" so you don't have to make an appt. for five days out when this happens to you.

Best of luck -- frustrating, I know. The good news is, it sounds like it's becoming more frequent. If so, it's probably trending towards a state where it just stays broken, and you don't have to do anything magic to make it come on. Then they can keep replacing parts till they actually fix the problem.

The jeep is drive-able after the incident, it just enters what I have termed "limp mode" where RPM's are limited to 3k.

After a power cycle, the ESC lamp does not illuminate, and RPM's function normally.

The dealer has been okay about getting me in quickly.

Ivoryring said:
My understanding is that if the computer decides to command the MIL (multifunction inidcator light - which happens to look like an engine, and most people call check-engine-light) in solid mode, it will stay lit for 3 (could be a different number, but it's not many) 'start engine' cycles after the error condition goes away. This matches one of the symptoms that you described, and your dealer service department may have mentioned this to you already.

If the MIL is on solid, the computer is telling you "schedule a service appointment at your convenience". If the MIL goes into flashing mode, rather than solidly lit, that is the computer telling you "get the Jeep to service immediately!"

In any case, good luck with getting assigned a meticulous tech at your dealership that will stick with this problem to get it resolved for you.

A mystery solved. Thank you. I could not quite understand how/why the MIL light cycled off.

Black_and_Tan

Discussion Starter · #46 · Jul 27, 2014

So, the jeep is scheduled to go back to the dealer early next week, and I have been driving it normally, on the assumption that I won't have any problems as long as I stay on paved roads.

My assumption was disproved earlier today. The MIL and ESC lamps illuminated on a smooth, paved road. First time this has happened on a paved road.

Also interestingly, the incident was preceded by a momentary drop of driving speed RPM's (~3k) to idle. The RPM drop was very short. RPM's went back to driving speed, and then the error lamps illuminated.

So, I wonder now if the problem is deteriorating (which may be easier to diagnose). Although, now it may be hazardous to drive casually.

Key dance did not display any codes.

flyinion

· #47 · Jul 27, 2014

Black_and_Tan said:
So, the jeep is scheduled to go back to the dealer early next week, and I have been driving it normally, on the assumption that I won't have any problems as long as I stay on paved roads.

My assumption was disproved earlier today. The MIL and ESC lamps illuminated on a smooth, paved road. First time this has happened on a paved road.

Also interestingly, the incident was preceded by a momentary drop of driving speed RPM's (~3k) to idle. The RPM drop was very short. RPM's went back to driving speed, and then the error lamps illuminated.

So, I wonder now if the problem is deteriorating (which may be easier to diagnose). Although, now it may be hazardous to drive casually.

Key dance did not display any codes.

I don't remember who it was......maybe "uphillbill" or similar username.......a couple years ago was having some really strange electrical issues that turned out after multiple dealer visits to be something grounding out I think between the transmission and the body. Maybe you've got something similar.....i.e. something randomly grounding out and causing issues?

Ivoryring

· #48 · Jul 27, 2014

Black_and_Tan said:
Also interestingly, the incident was preceded by a momentary drop of driving speed RPM's (~3k) to idle. The RPM drop was very short. RPM's went back to driving speed, and then the error lamps illuminated.

Do you mean the Tach display needle dropped down and went back up (visible on the display only, no other symptom during the drop), or the actual engine speed dropped (which you would feel/hear)? If it is the first, check the following two threads, but I seem to recall there are others as well:

http://www.wranglerforum.com/f274/electrical-issue-162903.html

http://www.wranglerforum.com/f274/anybody-having-the-same-electrical-problems-with-2012-a-172270.html

Black_and_Tan

Discussion Starter · #49 · Jul 27, 2014

Ivoryring said:
Do you mean the Tach display needle dropped down and went back up (visible on the display only, no other symptom during the drop), or the actual engine speed dropped (which you would feel/hear)? If it is the first, check the following two threads, but I seem to recall there are others as well:

http://www.wranglerforum.com/f274/electrical-issue-162903.html

http://www.wranglerforum.com/f274/anybody-having-the-same-electrical-problems-with-2012-a-172270.html

The RPM drop was accompanied by an actual loss of power, otherwise I probably wouldn't have noticed it.

Thanks for the links. Some people seem to have worse electrical problems with new jeeps. It is discouraging to read of multiple failed repair attempts.

Not sure if the dealer has really looked into the wheel position sensors. I think that I eliminated the battery terminals as a cause.

Other than replacing cam position sensors, the dealer has not thrown parts at this problem, and I hope that they do not start to try parts replacement with out first identifying root cause.

Black_and_Tan

Discussion Starter · #50 · Jul 28, 2014

Jeep is now at the dealer. Apparently, codes were thrown for both bank 1 and 2 cam position sensors. Previously it was only bank 1.

Black_and_Tan

Discussion Starter · #51 · Jul 29, 2014

Dealer reported that they found and fixed a short in the wiring harness.

Not sure why this was not found earlier; I can only speculate on the reasons.

At any rate, this appears to be the most likely causal factor.

Guarded optimism at the moment.

GreenMachine13

· #52 · Jul 29, 2014

Black_and_Tan said:
Dealer reported that they found and fixed a short in the wiring harness. Not sure why this was not found earlier; I can only speculate on the reasons. At any rate, this appears to be the most likely causal factor. Guarded optimism at the moment.

Fingers crossed!

I hope it's trouble free for you for many, many years now.

WillysGal

· #53 · Jul 30, 2014

Black_and_Tan said:
Dealer reported that they found and fixed a short in the wiring harness.

Not sure why this was not found earlier; I can only speculate on the reasons.

At any rate, this appears to be the most likely causal factor.

Guarded optimism at the moment.

Now finally, something that makes sense. I hope they FINALLY have you fixed.

NoGaBiker

· #54 · Jul 30, 2014

Black_and_Tan said:
Dealer reported that they found and fixed a short in the wiring harness.

Not sure why this was not found earlier;

Not done much automotive electrical work have you?

Just kidding with you, but things like that tend to be intermittent (short only happens when some particular set of circumstances causes one exposed piece of wire to touch something metal, but most of the time it's not touching.) Finding the problem when it's not happening 100% of the time can be very tough. That's why I asked earlier why you can't just drive immediately to the dealer the instant it happens, with the understanding they'll put somebody on it while it's still happening.

Sorry for your inconvenience, but glad they got it fixed -- fingers crossed!

Black_and_Tan

Discussion Starter · #55 · Jul 30, 2014

GreenMachine13 said:
Fingers crossed!

I hope it's trouble free for you for many, many years now.

Thank you!

WillysGal said:
Now finally, something that makes sense. I hope they FINALLY have you fixed.

Thank you!

NoGaBiker said:
Not done much automotive electrical work have you?

Just kidding with you, but things like that tend to be intermittent (short only happens when some particular set of circumstances causes one exposed piece of wire to touch something metal, but most of the time it's not touching.) Finding the problem when it's not happening 100% of the time can be very tough. That's why I asked earlier why you can't just drive immediately to the dealer the instant it happens, with the understanding they'll put somebody on it while it's still happening.

Sorry for your inconvenience, but glad they got it fixed -- fingers crossed!

Correct, I have not done automotive electrical work. I am finally at an age where I have better appreciation for my limitations, and that certainly is one of them!

Interestingly, the dealer was able to reproduce the problem on their own this s last time.

I think the issue (presuming it is now fixed) was steadily deteriorating.

****************

I picked up the jeep, and it drove well on the way home, including 7.5 miles on a dirt road.

Not yet allowing myself to think it is fixed, but certainly very optimistic.

Again, thanks all for the moral support. It really does help alleviate the frustration of this situation!

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Bent jeep

· #56 · Jul 30, 2014

Omg just saw this.

So glad they found it. I knew it had to be a short.

Bent jeep

· #57 · Jul 30, 2014

Omg just saw this.

So glad they found it. I knew it had to be a short.

Black_and_Tan

Discussion Starter · #58 · Aug 3, 2014

Bent jeep said:
Omg just saw this.

So glad they found it. I knew it had to be a short.

Thanks!

**********

I am increasingly confident that the issue has been fixed. Have not yet been on any trails yet, but did drive down a road that would have likely triggered the problem, but did not.

Bent jeep

· #59 · Aug 3, 2014

It's probably fixed. That's great news!

Black_and_Tan

Discussion Starter · #60 · Aug 9, 2014

Thought I would offer another (and hopefully final) update. Drove ~40 miles today on local trails (went up to Montana Mountain) without any problems.

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