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Discussion Starter #1
What's the actual purpose of them?

I've been researching and investigating trading up from my 2011 to a 2012 the past couple weeks. So far there isn't even a test vehicle of a Rubicon on any lots in my area to test. However the BS encountered from the sales people from dealer to dealer is just incredible. And that's to simply test drive when one comes in. I bought 2011 because it was practically given to me because I was in my dealer for service of my old one, wandered in to the show room started chatting had interest in a 2012, got involved for 3 hours and pretty much outwitted both he salesman and manager and secured a deal where I could flip the thing today and actually make some money. That's beside the point. Now that I am interested in testing and possibly buying a 2012, what's the point of the dealership? Other than messing around for 3 hours like I did.

Why can't a consumer buy direct from the factory at cost or at dealer invoice price if they know what they want? Dealerships other than for service seem antiquated. I mean they make movies about car salesman. Why does the process of hell still exist for buyers of cars in this day and age? What's the point? There's zero benefit from buying from a dealer other than free coffee or soda and ringing a bell when the deal is done. Are people today so dumb that they need someone to explain what the car is and can do and actually require someone to sell it to them? Who actually "shops" a car? You research the thing go in touch and feel it and buy it or not. Likewise a television. Same thing, clothes. Do you need someone hovering around while you touch and feel a pair of pants, and they gush about the stitching and fabric and extoll the virtues of the pleats?

Do any manufacturer's of cars allow you to buy factory direct? Why not?

I'm"hot" to test and maybe upgrade to a 2012 right now but my interest is waning as I have to traverse the minefield of BS from the dealers. Is that want the manufacturers want. Surely they know this.

Why is buying a vehicle today in nearly 2012, still a trauma?
 

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My dealer (about 50 miles away) did a fantastic job. Paid $33,700 for a 2012 JKU Rubi stickered at $36,995. Did most of it via email in a few hours work. He found the vehicle I was looking for (about 300 miles away) and had it delivered to his dealership. Did A+ job.



google: Kevin Brown, Dave Dennis Jeep - Dayton, Ohio.
 

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If you buy over the internet than how can you test drive it? I guess you expect to go to a dealer, test drive the vehicle your interested in and then buy off of the internet. You also have to think about things like colors. What you see on the internet may look 100% different in person. Other than that, I would say you are on something.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
You can do all of that at a factory outlet. Touch it feel it, drive it. Cost you an hour or two to drive out to one. Other than the "convenience" of having a dealer in your neighborhood, who needs the trauma of fighting to clawback your nickels.
 

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Economically, I don't think scrapping dealerships would actually result in wholesale type of pricing. Dealerships provide distribution points for the manufacturer. Without them, manufacturers would have to figure out how to distribute massive numbers of vehicles to the public. The result would either be a massive to-your-door delivery set up ($$$) or (more likely) some sort of "buying lots" where large numbers of vehicles were collected and distributed. Oh wait . . . that's what a dealership is. :D

Moving past that, not everyone is interested in buying a vehicle that essentially has no available competition and is therefore often either a "you want or you don't" type of item. For example, if you were in the market for a sedan, would you really be comfortable doing the whole thing online? Can you really be sure that you prefer the Accord to the Camry by just looking at them online? What about whatever Hyundai is offering, as they've made some real strides in the past few years? And don't forget Ford.

I have no idea which of those I'd prefer unless I actually drove them. Of course, I also probably wouldn't really care which bland sedan I got, but that's not how most consumers would feel.

And of course not everyone has access to the internet or possesses the internet savvy required to actually make an informed online purchase.

That said, you're right insofar as the enthusiast market is concerned for any vehicle (like us here on WF, and presumably similar folks on Vette forums and the like). The enthusiast very often won't need a test drive, so an entirely online transaction would make sense.

Finally, you actually can do an online purchase without a test drive. I just called dealerships looking for what I wanted and let them bid. I bounced them off each other for awhile and did all the paperwork and everything over the phone and through email. The jeep was even delivered to my house--I actually never set foot in the dealership.
 

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I believe one of the functions 'stealerships' provide for manufacturers is to insulate them from the buying public.

Building a vehicle is one thing requiring a certain expertise; servicing is another demanding and skilled process; ready storage for unsold units is undoubtedly another function.

Providing a cash-flow on mfd rigs prior to actual sale probably is another unspoken drive for having a 'dealer network'.

Having a separate business to handle financing and customer complaints probably constitutes more reasons for the dealer-network.

Besides, the UAW would have to establish a whole new set of work=demands for those not assembling vehicles but must deal with keeping tract of colors, options, ever changing purchaser whims....and that would detract from the infamous smoke/and/whiskey breaks of national news so recently.
 

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What's the actual purpose of them?

I've been researching and investigating trading up from my 2011 to a 2012 the past couple weeks. So far there isn't even a test vehicle of a Rubicon on any lots in my area to test. However the BS encountered from the sales people from dealer to dealer is just incredible. And that's to simply test drive when one comes in. I bought 2011 because it was practically given to me because I was in my dealer for service of my old one, wandered in to the show room started chatting had interest in a 2012, got involved for 3 hours and pretty much outwitted both he salesman and manager and secured a deal where I could flip the thing today and actually make some money. That's beside the point. Now that I am interested in testing and possibly buying a 2012, what's the point of the dealership? Other than messing around for 3 hours like I did.

Why can't a consumer buy direct from the factory at cost or at dealer invoice price if they know what they want? Dealerships other than for service seem antiquated. I mean they make movies about car salesman. Why does the process of hell still exist for buyers of cars in this day and age? What's the point? There's zero benefit from buying from a dealer other than free coffee or soda and ringing a bell when the deal is done. Are people today so dumb that they need someone to explain what the car is and can do and actually require someone to sell it to them? Who actually "shops" a car? You research the thing go in touch and feel it and buy it or not. Likewise a television. Same thing, clothes. Do you need someone hovering around while you touch and feel a pair of pants, and they gush about the stitching and fabric and extoll the virtues of the pleats?

Do any manufacturer's of cars allow you to buy factory direct? Why not?

I'm"hot" to test and maybe upgrade to a 2012 right now but my interest is waning as I have to traverse the minefield of BS from the dealers. Is that want the manufacturers want. Surely they know this.

Why is buying a vehicle today in nearly 2012, still a trauma?
All this typing, and haven't figured out that the FACTORY has no desire for taking your old vehicle in on trade?

And candidly, you did NOT fool both the salesperson and the sales manager. They made money on that sale, or they wouldn't have sold it. Period. The best salespeople and managers make the customer BELIEVE that they got the best of them, when, in reality, the opposite occurred.
 

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What's the actual purpose of them?

I've been researching and investigating trading up from my 2011 to a 2012 the past couple weeks. So far there isn't even a test vehicle of a Rubicon on any lots in my area to test. However the BS encountered from the sales people from dealer to dealer is just incredible. And that's to simply test drive when one comes in. I bought 2011 because it was practically given to me because I was in my dealer for service of my old one, wandered in to the show room started chatting had interest in a 2012, got involved for 3 hours and pretty much outwitted both he salesman and manager and secured a deal where I could flip the thing today and actually make some money. That's beside the point. Now that I am interested in testing and possibly buying a 2012, what's the point of the dealership? Other than messing around for 3 hours like I did.

Why can't a consumer buy direct from the factory at cost or at dealer invoice price if they know what they want? Dealerships other than for service seem antiquated. I mean they make movies about car salesman. Why does the process of hell still exist for buyers of cars in this day and age? What's the point? There's zero benefit from buying from a dealer other than free coffee or soda and ringing a bell when the deal is done. Are people today so dumb that they need someone to explain what the car is and can do and actually require someone to sell it to them? Who actually "shops" a car? You research the thing go in touch and feel it and buy it or not. Likewise a television. Same thing, clothes. Do you need someone hovering around while you touch and feel a pair of pants, and they gush about the stitching and fabric and extoll the virtues of the pleats?

Do any manufacturer's of cars allow you to buy factory direct? Why not?

I'm"hot" to test and maybe upgrade to a 2012 right now but my interest is waning as I have to traverse the minefield of BS from the dealers. Is that want the manufacturers want. Surely they know this.

Why is buying a vehicle today in nearly 2012, still a trauma?
You got a great deal on the 2011 because of the new motor and auto transmission in the 2012. So if you want a 2012 you will take a big loss on your 2011. You will also pay sales tax and license again with 2012.
 

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Tree climber you got that wright i worked in sales with the wombat salesmen sunnys smoking coffee all you can do is try and get the best deal you can that said buy at the end of the year as the new stuff is coming in and the old has to go don,t let these guys lead you arround the lot it means their in control they walk one way you walk the other don,t sit down in their office stand at all times ,ask what the car ows them don,t buy the first visit the 3 or forth is better try it it works
 

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Tree climber you got that wright i worked in sales with the wombat salesmen sunnys smoking coffee all you can do is try and get the best deal you can that said buy at the end of the year as the new stuff is coming in and the old has to go don,t let these guys lead you arround the lot it means their in control they walk one way you walk the other don,t sit down in their office stand at all times ,ask what the car ows them don,t buy the first visit the 3 or forth is better try it it works
Proof positive that punctuation matters.

Decoded: TreeClimber, you got that right! I worked in sales with the (???) salesmen, (???), smoking, coffee. All you can do is try and get the best you can. Buy at the end of the year, as the new stuff is coming in, and the old has to go. Don't let these guys lead you around the lot, (as) it means they're in control. They walk one way, you walk the other. Don't sit down in their office, stand at all times. Ask what car owes (?) them. Don't buy (at) the first visit, the 3rd or 4th (visit) is better. Try it, it works.
 

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Lol treeclimber.

Seriously long run-on sentence. Wright?
 

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TreeClimber1 said:
All this typing, and haven't figured out that the FACTORY has no desire for taking your old vehicle in on trade?

And candidly, you did NOT fool both the salesperson and the sales manager. They made money on that sale, or they wouldn't have sold it. Period. The best salespeople and managers make the customer BELIEVE that they got the best of them, when, in reality, the opposite occurred.
I agree. The dealership made what they wanted to or they wouldn't have sold it. They saw him coming. He is in for a rude awakening when
He tries to trade for a 2012.
 

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There's zero benefit from buying from a dealer other than free coffee or soda.
it would have been nice to even have gotten the offer of free coffee or soda. the last jeep dealer we went into was the absolute worst dealer experience of my life. first off, the guys had absolutely no knowledge of their product. we drove 30 minutes to the dealer as we were wanting to test drive a new 2012 JKU Rubicon AUTO, which i called about before hand. of course when we get there all they have is the manual. so we get in it to test drive it. i start it up and the low gas warning light is on the gauge is well below empty. i ask the sales guy if he can put some gas in it. he says it will be fine and not to worry about it. we get out on the road in the middle of a bunch of traffic. i tell him i really think we should put a gallon or two in it. so we finally stop. he puts a gallon in it. goes inside to the convenience store to pay and comes out with a red bull and candy bar for himself. never offered to get water for my wife and i. kinda rude if you ask me.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
Speak of the devil...

Been waiting on a proposal from an out of town dealer with stock on a 2012.

Sight unseen based on the VIN and my discription, he offered me firm 30K for my 2011. I paid 32,500 out the door 3 months ago. :whistling:

Overall deal is too much though, the stock he has is laden with gadgets and too expensive. Do not need or want all the options.
 

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You guys slay me. The auto world has become a place where the customer insists on paying only $2 for a steak, then cries when it's not beef. The fact is, the insulated from the buyer is right. If this was truly factory direct, you would pay invoice, right? Well, do you think the factory makes a profit at invoice? Ahhhh... but to let a local business, which pays taxes and employs people in your area, a profit is somehow a shameful act.
There is a way to have what people ask for.... ...and that is to pay MSRP. If everyone paid the same... which is what you are suggesting... then you could make your decision on where to buy baswd upon service. The shop could probably afford to stock more accessories, and a greater selection of models. As it stands, slim margins and floor plan insure fast movers.

By the logic of "stealership, every person here who works is a crook... taking money from some poor slob when I'll bet you call in sick, goof off, make mistakes, and surf the web on company time. Stealerships? Riiiight. Who created this situation? Oh, I remember... people who thought it was okay to get something for next to nothing, yet somehow expect the economy to kick ass. Want great, expert sales staff at rock bottom prices/ go to work in a dealership and make it happen. Change starts with you.

Remember how cheap you expect others to work for when the pay cuts come home to roost... and quit patting yourself on the back about tryin g to give another person a good f***ing and call it savvy shopping, but if they try to make money, they're bums.
 

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i have no problem paying someone well for good service and good knowledge. pat on this forum is a fantastic example of what a sales guy should be like. he is why dealers serve a purpose. i have done a ton of research on my jeep purchase and know a lot about it, but it is nothing compared to what a good sales guy like pat knows. i really hope pat is well rewarded for the work he does. i would have loved to buy my jeep from him but it is just too far away.

at the other end of the spectrum is the innumerable jack @** sales guys out there who don't know crap about their products and don't give a crap about their customers. they just want the quick sale and quotas met. the wrangler is such a unique vehicle that it sells itself. so what is the motivation for most of these yahoos to actually be helpful and learn about the products they are selling?

luckily, i am dealing with a really great and attentive sales guy for the jeep we are ordering. it only took visiting 6 dealerships to get to this point.
 

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Discussion Starter #18
My interest is peaked in 2012 "swap". As it stands without even discussing it further, there is a 10K gap, of which 6K is all the unnecessary options (matching fender/roof, remote start, highest end radio, airbags etc.etc). Get rid of that and we're at 4K. 4K would represent the factory rebate I received when I bought mine. With a good nudge without a doubt I could get what I paid for mine in a trade in, or sell it privately and actually make some coin. Otherwise all I would "lose is the factory rebate that came with mine.

This particular dealer is amenable to long distance transaction, interestingly they're in the middle of some outcrop with a pop of less that 3000 people :eek:, do not know how he ended up with a 2012 Crush Rubicon when here in big city no dealers have any 2012 Rubicons on their lot at all. Plus they're full of sh*t as this trade in offer confirms.

Mighty tempted to do something but with an order for what I really want / need...
 

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I'll say this ...

Why should I have to spend hours researching wholesale prices, haggling, fighting with sales managers and finance guys just to not be financially raped?

There's too much stuff hidden and obscured. Too much stuff added to the out door price without your knowledge.

I should be able to walk in, find something on the lot, and see the total and final price right on the sticker.

If I go to the Apple Store, Home Depot, Wal-Mart, etc., there's none of that BS. There's the price, I either pay it or I don't, I either accept the extended warranty or I don't. That's it.

I've had salesmen refuse to give me my keys back, finance guys try to add credit life insurance, gap insurance, pre-paid maintenance, etc. to my bill without even asking me. (The guy who tried to add the credit life insurance, actually told me that I asked for it!)

The funny thing is, after all the lies and deceit they have the gall to tell you how to fill out the customer service questionnaire!
 

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I would agree with the OP if he was talking about cradle to grave business model. Think Apple VS Microsoft. Why is Apple's business model so good? They control EVERYTHING, from design, to production, to sales. Microsoft makes the software, and then some asshat computer company sticks their software in, the computer dies, and customer exclaims "f*** windows."

Dealerships are privately owned, and BUY the car from the manufacturer. This is why you can have different experiences at different dealerships of the same maker. I think it would be nice if Chrysler OWNED all their dealerships, so the DEALER cannot profit from you in ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORM. When you go and buy an iphone, you can't negotiate the price right? $399 means $399. With car dealers, a third variable is inserted, the dealer. They can make more or less on the same car, depending on how educated the buyer is. They can rip them off with rustproofing, blinker fluid maintenance program, and cross drilled brake line installation.

Car dealers are like politicians, a cancerous scum, that needs to be hosed ASAP. Dealerships should be under the control of the company that's on the windows, not some family.
 
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