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Discussion Starter #21
After reading a lot and talking to JK owners with first hand experience.

I think the Sprintex is the choice for me.

My cousin has a Magnuson on his 2014 JKU , Auto and recommends the Sprintex over the Magnuson.
That should say something.

Anyways, still looking for a Sprintex dealer


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Be sure to to report back with your experience/thoughts. We need more info on the forums about all the forced induction mods so people can more easily decide which fits their needs/wants best.

The real problem is that no one seems to have experience with multiple options. It's hard to describe differences between different options when everyone involved in the discussion only has experience with zero or one option.

I think we need to arrange some kind of Jeep power adder meet to get vehicles with many different options together in one place to compare and contrast :)
If someone wants to send me free stuff to test and maybe fund/offset my labor (in beer, jeep swag or other cool jeep things), I will pull my Edelbrock and install what you send me.

I could pull it all back off and send you the parts when I am done. The Edelbrock is staying on long term regardless of outcome.

Maybe Prodigy can send me their full kit with boost controller for a free test and write up. Looks like we can "twin charge" a 3.6L with the available parts (like mating one of the TS or TVS blower kits with the turbo - not the RIPP). Send me the stuff and I will build it. I'll spray it with WM50 too!!! It might be a little bit of a b*tch to get tuned but it still sounds like a great project.
 

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Heat Soak?

Mr.P_0_0_P brings up some great points about heat soak. There is more to what he is saying. Reading the post could leave one with the impression that a roots-style blower is just plain bad and the next best thing to pouring molten metal down the intake and centrifugal hair dryers are the only real solution. Personally, I am well aware of the virtues of a centrifugal and have had the fortune to meet and speak personally with Mr. Steve Dinan, who also believes this wholeheartedly believes that centrifugal is the way to go for the same reasons. This is why they use them exclusively.


Heat soak is a fact of life and affect us all, NA as well as FI and regardless of FI style. Back in the day, when mechanics still had to diagnose stuff, diagnosing post-heatsoak drivability issues was fairly common. My stock 3.6 with plastic manifolds still exhibited heat soak on hot days, especially after running and sitting.

Sure, maybe the blower and manifolds are aluminum but there are much larger objects in the engine bay that retain and dissipate heat slowly over time. Ummm... You forgot about the engine and the converters bolted to it. Heat rises and goes through that plastic manifold too.

True, maybe the roots style configurations retain a little more heat than other designs but how much of a problem is that really? It is not like the other designs eliminate heat soak?

Anyway, the heat soak dissipates as soon as the vehicle starts moving and the engine starts swallowing cooler air. If you spray water or water meth, you can watch the temps drop as soon as the sprayer is on. It will also drop when you are boosting. So on a logger, the boost goes up and then IATs stay level and then drop several degrees through redline.

I would also like to suggest that (apparently?) nobody has actually measured the differences in IATs in a more scientific way.

I doubt that it would be a fair comparison anyway. Here is why.... The IAT sensor (thermistor) is not only changed to a different style but is moved to a much hotter location in the engine.

The stock IAT thermistor is a plastic housing shied into a rubber intake hose.

The one supplied with the edelbrock kit is not only a brass design (probably retains more heat and reads higher - just guessing) but it has also been moved to intake manifold, just in front of the intake valve. On top of that, it is installed by probably one of the hottest cylinders in the engine bay (rear most, passenger side).

Anyone wanting to do IAT comparisons should really relocate the stock sensor to where the edelbrock puts it. You could log the results and post them versus making stuff up. You will have to be a little bit of an electrician and extent the IAT sensor harness but that should be cake.

The hottest IATs I saw last summer were about 150 degrees or so on the really hot days. That was before the water/meth. Jeep still ran fine and was still a lot more powerful than NA.

FWIW, I had an "hot side" Eaton roots blower (roots, not TVS) on Miata and it was mounted right above the header. Talk about heat soak! Not intercooled either and no water injection. Heat soak was still noticeable but at the same time, the car was still faster than it was before and still ran well. Just a relatively sluggish in the heat - just like it was when NA.

Still, I can see where you are in a competitive situation, the timing of heat soak could cost you a race, where the other guy is not heat soaked.

Out on the trail, in traffic, waiting for folks to clear the trail, all of your buddies in the group will likely be heat soaked, regardless of what is under the hood.

Still, regardless of FI choice, you are still throwing hot air down the intake. You need to cool that to decrease detonation whether you do it with an intercooler or water injection or a combination of both. Adding just (distilled) water injection would be an act of kindness to your motor. Water injection alone allows you to push the limits (more boost, more timing advance but NOT beyond MBT as well as tune the fuel a little leaner).

edit:
Heat soak has been around for a LOOOONG time. I remember reading an interesting article published in one of the hot rod magazines back in the early 1980s. Someone modified a factory airbox and mated it to an A/C evaporator (the part that normally mounts under your dash) to cool IATs. He got them way down but it was not worth the effort. It would be great to re-find that old article.
 

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After reading a lot and talking to JK owners with first hand experience.

I think the Sprintex is the choice for me.

My cousin has a Magnuson on his 2014 JKU , Auto and recommends the Sprintex over the Magnuson.
That should say something.

Anyways, still looking for a Sprintex dealer


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I would have picked the sprintex over the maggy as well. I could not/still cannot get past the oil filter snafu that they designed into the system.

Please post pics of your project. Very interested. Fair warning, I am going to try and get you hooked on meth like I am. It's the least I can do. ;)
 

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Discussion Starter #25
I will post pics for sure and try to post some videos of the the performance on road and off road.


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Responding to Pickles....

OEM turbos pushed to the limits? How do you figure? My (admittedly ancient) experience suggests otherwise. First of all, factory turbo motors have reduced compression (say, ~8:1 versus the same motor in NA form at ~9:1). Though boost numbers were never published, we had ways (through the parts department as I seem to recall) to know what the boost was. Specs were not published in the service manuals that I recall in those days.

OEM turbo systems also tend to employ fully insulated exhaust systems. They are not single wall. It is basically a single wall wrapped with an insulation and then encased with more sheet metal. Even the turbos had heat shields. Some Subaru models even had air venting designed in to let hot air escape directly up when stopped.

Sure, pipes can be coated and wrapped but if you dig deeper and read the fine print, that only has limited impact. Not sure how theses things compare to OEM approaches anyway. You are still throwing heat out. Even when not on boost. It is also not quite that binary where you are only throwing tons of heat on boost. Okay, you are in away generating it in a more binary way but that (cast iron?) housing takes time to cool down and you will still be throwing heat off of that down pipe for a little but as it cools to a less hot temp.

Original turbos were not tied to the cooling system. later ones are. New bearing technologies have obviously changed things but if you starve the bearing of lubrication, you are still going to kill it.

I would argue that factory turbos - at least the ones that I worked on years ago were not pushed to their limits. Rather, turbocharging the cars in general pushed things to the limits.

Sure, your desert examples are interesting here. I am saying something different though and I won't be taking my rig to the sand or desert any time soon anyway. What happens here is the motor cooks over time due to the long term effects of the high heat and hot/cold cycles. O-rings become deformed and hard as a rook. intake tubes crack when you touch them. The parts guys loved it when a turbo Subaru with was a leaker at ~80k miles or so. You basically had to order one of every single rubber o-ring or hose on that motor and meticulously rebuild everything.

Sure, you can put water/meth on your turbo rig but two things there.... Did you already post about being afraid of making more HP than you already are for fear of chucking a rod out the side of your pentastar? True though, you would widen the gap again and I would totally be doing it too with a turbo. What you are not factoring is price. Edelbrock + Aquamist ($5,500 + $800) = $6,300. Plus add to that $350 or so to add a K&N CAI to replace the stock air box and you come to ~$6,650 for a really great running TVS system that will be putting out a verified 10psi at redline in 4th gear. What do you get for that price in the Prodigy model and how much more HP is it in that case?

HA! No CARP approval on the Prodigy. Anyone want to guess as to why they have not even tried? Wait!!!! ME!! ME!! ME!!! It is the catalytic converter relocation to say the least. To be legal, the converter would need to be hanging off of the turbo instead of that down pipe. Again, that is already the hottest part of the engine bay. Another factor here might be that the turbo kit makes no attempt to replace the mandatory enclosed air box.

My air to water intercooler has not proven inefficient. It seems to be working and doing its job. I can also jump out of the rig and feel the radiator cool to the touch after a drive. WMI definitely helps things here and will help with air to air as well.

Goof to know on the self contained bearing on the RIPP. I was too lazy to double check. A lot of centrifugal blowers require this. Did RIPP used to require it?

It would be lame to think that you don't need to carry a spare belt with a turbo. Your single point of failure is still that water pump and you should probably have a spare belt with you anyway. It wouldn't be a terrible idea regardless of FI, NA or V8. Still, with serpentine belts, you do get a lot of warning before they go.

What you should carry for sure is extra coolant of the correct type (might not be the same as your radiator - HOAT or OAT etc) with a turbo because if you loose that cooler, that is a recipe for a cracked turbo housing before you get home.

Yes, you will defiantly want to use the best oil you can, what ever you decide that is. You don't get the latitude to push extremes with a turbocharged motor that you might otherwise NA. Don't let the oil break down and don't let it get too dirty.

That, and if I was to go for a turbo, I would also opt for the better ceramic bearing.
 

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Mr.P_0_0_P

You suggest that the TVS blower is small. Maybe it is. Interestingly, I would tend to agree because the 3.6l seems to be one of the larger motors that this particular tvs rotor pack is used on.

Still, I am seeing in the logs and registering boost real time at anything above 1k rpm and it just goes on from there right to red line. Out of the box, I verified 8psi. After opening the intake and adding the WMI system, I can just crest past 10psi in the logs (and the "peak" reading on the soft gauge). In terms of boost level, I don't think I want any more PSI on the stock motor. Still the key to that is spraying!!

May I suggest that you log how much boost your RIPP is putting and post it on up here in the thread. I have done the same elsewhere and can do it here as well. Be sure to log MAP and BARO because the amount of boost you are seeing is MAP - BARO (Manifold Absolute Pressure minus Barometric Pressure). Also log RPM and vehicle speed so we can see what gear you are in. You will log the most boost in a higher gear at redline.

Sure, the centrifugal may be throwing out more air volume (not pressure) at peak output but where does the power fall in the usable RPM range?

edit:
Pickles: couple of more tidbits on the older factory turbos... What I forgot to say is that even with the lowered compression, the factory turbos were only putting out 6-8 PSI anyway. That and you really did not see much boost until way up top, giving their old reputation for lag. The newer cars are likely pushing the limits more but I am out of touch there.
 

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despite the linear build up of boost with a belt driven SC, I can still mash the throttle and get instant boost and power.
Yup; that's one of the big benefits of a belt-driven supercharger compared to a turbo.


The hottest IATs I saw last summer were about 150 degrees or so on the really hot days. That was before the water/meth. Jeep still ran fine and was still a lot more powerful than NA.
Where is your IAT sensor? Upstream, or doenstream of the compressor?

I've noticed on some of the supercharger kits, the IAT sensor is upstram of the compressor, meaning that it's measuring the air BEFORE it gets compressed and heated. If your IAT sensor is located upstream of the compressor, then the IAT readings in your data logs are extremely optimistic.

Is that 150*F IAT during "normal driving", or at the end of a high load full throttle boosted acceleration?

OEM turbos pushed to the limits? How do you figure?
Not pushed to the limits, but closer to the limits. For example, stock WRX STi turbos make about 15 psi from the factory. People generally only push the stock turbo to the the low 20's psi range max. And at that point, they're already pushing the turbo beyond its efficiency range, because boost drops way off to the 16 psi range at redline.

The Precision 5862 in the Prodigy kit is marketed as a 650 hp turbo, and people are running 20-30 psi boost in other vehicles with this turbo. This turbo is barely breaking a sweat as used on the Wrangler.


OEM turbo systems also tend to employ fully insulated exhaust systems. They are not single wall.
I have not heard of this. Can you point to examples? A quick search for WRX STi headers, for example, seems to show that they are single wall pipes with some heat shields bolted on/around some sections of it.

Even the turbos had heat shields.
Turbo blanked serves takes care of this on the Prodigy kit. It works well. I can touch the turbo blanket on mine immediately after driving.


Did you already post about being afraid of making more HP than you already are for fear of chucking a rod out the side of your pentastar?
I'm sure I said something somewhere about not wanting to turn the boost up any higher than Prodigy recommends. I have no specific knowledge that more boost would be harmful to the lower end of the stock engine. In fact, Prodigy is already pushing it further with all stock internals, and they plan to go even further with an engine rebuild. They should be wrapping up those projects and announcing details later this year.

~$6,650 for a really great running TVS system that will be putting out a verified 10psi at redline in 4th gear. What do you get for that price in the Prodigy model and how much more HP is it in that case?
Depends on what options you go with. That's about the high end of the most expensive options for the Stage 1 kit, which makes about 330 hp and 340 ft-lbs at the wheels on about 6.8 psi boost.

$6,999 is the low end of the Stage 2 kit which makes about 370+ hp and 370+ ft-lbs at the wheels on about 8.2 psi boost.

Turbos are much more efficient than superchargers, so less boost is needed to get big results.

Another factor here might be that the turbo kit makes no attempt to replace the mandatory enclosed air box.
How does RIPP have CARB approval if an enclosed air box is required?

Goof to know on the self contained bearing on the RIPP. I was too lazy to double check. A lot of centrifugal blowers require this. Did RIPP used to require it?
RIPP has always used units with self-contained lubrication as far as I know. Never needed an oil feed line.

It would be lame to think that you don't need to carry a spare belt with a turbo. ...Still, with serpentine belts, you do get a lot of warning before they go.
The turbo does not add any load to the belt, so there's no additional concern about the belt beyond whatever concern you might have about the belt on a stock engine failing. If your belt is old or showing signs of ending its life, then replace it or carry a spare. Turbo has no impact on this decision.

What you should carry for sure is extra coolant of the correct type (might not be the same as your radiator - HOAT or OAT etc) with a turbo because if you loose that cooler, that is a recipe for a cracked turbo housing before you get home.
Turbo is not water cooled, btw.


That, and if I was to go for a turbo, I would also opt for the better ceramic bearing.
Dual ceramic ball bearing is an upgrade option. Spools a bit quicker.
 

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I turned in my wrenches before wrx came out. I worked on the really old stuff. They first started putting turbos on the old push rod motors with the green valve covers. Those are the ones that had to be converted from oil only to being tied to the water jacket. I worked on the next generation after that as well the "L" or "Loyalle" series when they first went to OHC and cam belts. Both of those models came with the double walled exhaust. Not sure about anything later. Mazdas did too.

Even if you used to own one of these cars, you would know that the exhaust is double walled. They failed all of the time. The heat was contained so they would become more brittle and crack inside. The would be somewhat muffled and not necessarily very audible at first due to the double walls. Sometimes the complaint would just be a rattly exhaust and maybe a little lack of power.

My IAT sensor is after the blower and after the IC. Both sit on top of the motor. The IAT sensor is within a couple fingers reach of the PCV valve and back up against the firewall.

New turbos have no doubt come a long way on many levels from when I was working on the old stuff. Heat still exists, though and I still will probably never put one on my jeep. I still find your implementation interesting none the less. And it does seem to produce good low end which is a good thing.

Sure. Nobody is questioning turbo efficiencies. It takes some parasitic loss to spin that pump. Still, even at the lower boost level. the price point and HP is about the same on the parts alone.

Not water cooled? What is that thing I saw? An oil cooler then? I can see that as doing the same job. Like I mentioned, the older turbos that didn't have some form of cooling all died early deaths. The few that didn't got replaced as part of that old Subaru campaign. I saved a couple of the yet to be failed warranty take offs and gave them to a couple of friends. Nobody found a way to install them on anything.

If Prodigy starts pushing more boost, I would venture to say that their solution will include some water. That is what will let you get more boost out of the stock motor. Meth will raise the octane and cool in cylinder temps. I think there is an assumption that you can extract more HP with pure water than with pure meth because you can push limits farther and into extremes. Ideal is to use 50/50.
 

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My IAT sensor is after the blower and after the IC.
That's good. You're getting accurate readings then :)

I believe it was the Sprintex kit for the 3.8 engine that had the IAT sensor in approximately the stock location, so it was measureing temp BEFORE it was compressed then cooled. They must have built ins ome assumptions into their tune about what the intake temp would really be based on their pre-supercharger readings.

The turbo uses the stock IAT sensor in approximately stock location (just upstream of the throttle plate), after the intercooler. When cruising on the freeway today, intake temps were 12*F above ambient. I setup a custom PID in the Torque app on my tablet to display [IAT - ambient]. It's kinda fun to watch it change while sitting in traffic, getting moving, accelerating hard onto the freeway, etc. Full throttle acceleration from a stop to about 80 mph pushes intake temps up to about 50-60*F above ambient, then it tapers back down over the course of about 30 seconds.

Not water cooled? What is that thing I saw? An oil cooler then?
I dunno. Can you post a picture of what you saw?

The turbo itself is only air/oil cooled.

Maybe you saw the transmission cooler for the automatic transmission? The stock trans cooler needs to be replaced for the Stage 2 kit to make room for the intercooler.
 

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After reading a lot and talking to JK owners with first hand experience.

I think the Sprintex is the choice for me.

My cousin has a Magnuson on his 2014 JKU , Auto and recommends the Sprintex over the Magnuson.
That should say something.

Anyways, still looking for a Sprintex dealer


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Please share your findings on any good dealer/source, I am in the market for the Sprintex system as well, best pricing I have found is RPMExtreme.com
 

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Discussion Starter #33
I agree with what most are saying.

We all know that the turbo makes more power vs SC ; however why have in reliable more power??

In other words, it's a headache to install the turbo and another headache to maintain it.

I want power I can rely on day in and day out.

I want to spend more time on the streets or a the desert rather than in a garage trying to figure out what to do next.

The Sprintex has less power than a turbo but is more reliable.

That gents is the number one reason I'm going for a Sprintex.

I'm still looking around, for more discounted prices and will post if I do find anything.


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Maybe you saw the transmission cooler for the automatic transmission? The stock trans cooler needs to be replaced for the Stage 2 kit to make room for the intercooler.
It is in the media on their product page. Maybe it is indeed a transmission cooler for the relocation. It seems to include a black tank too. Is that something else?

Interesting. Additional labor/work/cost. Do RIPP auto trans guys have to do something similar?

My IAT readings are pretty realistic. Right now, I am running about 25-30 degrees over ambient. It is not rely hot here yet in northern cali. I will get a better idea later in the summer. Still, romping on the throttle and spraying my junk down from the inside has an immediate and measurable effect. I am not so concerned about the IATs. It ran well in the heat late last summer without the WMI.
 

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Please share your findings on any good dealer/source, I am in the market for the Sprintex system as well, best pricing I have found is RPMExtreme.com
Good luck getting a discount off of MSRP on any of these kits. I have heard of folks getting better deals on the RIPPs (maybe wait for a forum deal or something plus I think they offer killer pricing at events)?

Try used, perhaps? Not sure how many of the other systems can be found used at this point but I seem to see a lot of RIPPs out there from folks going to hemis or other solutions.

I have also heard of discounts on the maggy. With the Edelbrock out there, I think it puts lower price pressure on Magnusson. I have not double checked lately but the Magnusson had a higher MSRP than the Edelbrock originally. With the oil filter issue and the unpainted intercooler, I can see how Magnusson would have to undercut the edelbrock price-wise. The base maggy kit is also 6psi vs 8psi like the edelbrock.
 

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Discussion Starter #36
I had a small discount on both Sprintex and Magnuson from vendors here at the forum.

However; I'm still looking for for better pricing as I might need to get 2 kits.


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It seems to include a black tank too. Is that something else?
That's a coolant expansion tank. Replaces the stock large plastic one to make room for the intercooler piping between the intercooler and throttle body.

Do RIPP auto trans guys have to do something similar?
RIPP install instructions here: Instructions — RIPP Superchargers - Superchargers for Jeep, Dodge, RAM and Chrysler

According to that, yes, the transmission cooler is replaced.

There's also a few things here and there that need to be trimmed/bent for clearance.


Some interesting tidbits:

Automatic transmission: Auto transmissions may not up shift at full throttle when driving in “D” (drive) mode, THIS
IS a Direct product of OEM programming and not the provided tuning. In order to shift at full throttle, end users may
either “lift to shift” by raising the accelerator slightly (partially). RIPP makes no claims as to the reliability of the
transmission with the supercharger installed.
Please take note – the factory Cruise Control cannot be programmed with any custom mapping. It is a normal
condition to feel a slight surge during some CC functions.
 

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Umm reliability of transmission? That's not scary..I get the lift to shift at full throttle to an extent but shouldn't have to worry about transmission going out?
 

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That's a coolant expansion tank. Replaces the stock large plastic one to make room for the intercooler piping between the intercooler and throttle body.



RIPP install instructions here: Instructions — RIPP Superchargers - Superchargers for Jeep, Dodge, RAM and Chrysler

According to that, yes, the transmission cooler is replaced.

There's also a few things here and there that need to be trimmed/bent for clearance.


Some interesting tidbits:
Interesting bits. It all just sounds like more work. I'm getting too old and lazy for that. ;)

Not sure if the cruise control issues are limited to one transmission type but I actually use it from time to time and have zero issue so far. I do see boost if the cruise tries to maintain speed going up a hill or something. It just makes it handle the load more gracefully.
 
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