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Water in Crankcase
Hey guys, I have a 3.6/6spd JK with 6K miles on it. Dealer is claiming that due to driving in water, the seal at the crank pulley was able to draw water into the crankcase and cause damage. The intake did not have a drop of water in it, and the air filter was completely dry, I pulled the dip stick and the oil did not appear milky. Have you every heard of water being ingested into these motors through the crankcase?
The Jeep did see some water, but never over the height of the tires or bumper. They're claiming that the seal is intended to keep oil in, not keep water out, and because of that Chrysler is not willing to cover under warranty. It seems to me that water ingestion in depths less than what Jeep.com claims the vehicle is rated for (30"), and not related to intake/hydrolock would indicate improper seal and thus a manufacturer defect. I can't seem to find any other instances of this occurring through my searches. Anyone here ever heard of this, or had luck appealing a denied warranty claim like this?
I should clarify that the claim has not been made with Chrysler yet, but the dealer is assuming they will not cover, and refuses to proceed with investigating until someone commits to paying the bill.
Initially the Jeep stalled and threw several error codes, I let it dry out and disconnected the battery to clear codes. Now the only codes are for the Cam Position Sensors (2 codes, A, and B), it's misfiring and idling pretty rough but drives fine once it's moving, it does stall and the low oil pressure light comes on at idle. It sounds rough though with a high pitch whine relative to rpms, and rattles like a semi.
Any input is appreciated... thanks!
Thanks!
The Jeep did see some water, but never over the height of the tires or bumper. They're claiming that the seal is intended to keep oil in, not keep water out, and because of that Chrysler is not willing to cover under warranty. It seems to me that water ingestion in depths less than what Jeep.com claims the vehicle is rated for (30"), and not related to intake/hydrolock would indicate improper seal and thus a manufacturer defect. I can't seem to find any other instances of this occurring through my searches. Anyone here ever heard of this, or had luck appealing a denied warranty claim like this?
I should clarify that the claim has not been made with Chrysler yet, but the dealer is assuming they will not cover, and refuses to proceed with investigating until someone commits to paying the bill.
Initially the Jeep stalled and threw several error codes, I let it dry out and disconnected the battery to clear codes. Now the only codes are for the Cam Position Sensors (2 codes, A, and B), it's misfiring and idling pretty rough but drives fine once it's moving, it does stall and the low oil pressure light comes on at idle. It sounds rough though with a high pitch whine relative to rpms, and rattles like a semi.
Any input is appreciated... thanks!
Thanks!
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Generally speaking, there is usually slight positive pressure inside an engine crankcase (not manifold vacuum) that is in operation. Pop off a PCV/breather hose on any running engine, and you'll see for yourself.
Drag racers often attach a vacuum pump to valve covers to generate crankcase vacuum to improve ring seal and get any blow-by out more efficiently than the engine can on its own.
No water should be able to make it past a crank seal if it's working properly. I would bet that any water made it inside via another route, like the intake tract.
Drag racers often attach a vacuum pump to valve covers to generate crankcase vacuum to improve ring seal and get any blow-by out more efficiently than the engine can on its own.
No water should be able to make it past a crank seal if it's working properly. I would bet that any water made it inside via another route, like the intake tract.
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855 Posts
sounds like a line of BS.. if the SEAL at the crank pulley is doing it's job... er.. SEALing, then no water would get in.
Per above post, contact Chrysler.
Per above post, contact Chrysler.
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:welcome: to the Forum..:wavey:
What I have highlighted above, just doesn't make any sense. If the Dealer is saying that water entering the crankcase has caused a failure, then the oil should have somewhat of a milky appearance! (Which you wisely checked). I would ask for a oil analysis to really quantify, how much if any water was in the oil.
As for seals. It really depends on the type of seal, and what they are saying maybe correct. If it's only a single lip seal, designed to keep fluids in, then that is it's only purpose. Some seals are double lip, designed to keep both fluid in, and eliminate something exterior, from entering.
I have a sales brochure, that states water forging, 30" safely. So at least you have that hold card........:thumb:
I personally know of another 3.6/6spd that had the same thing happen. Air filter dry, no visible sign of entry. Water in crankcase and oil filter packed with mud. Jeep did not warranty.
Do you have exhaust spacers? Did the engine stall while in the water?
Do you have exhaust spacers? Did the engine stall while in the water?
I do not have spacers, exhaust tip was submerged while climbing out of the hole but at that point it would have to make it way up the exhaust on an incline and clear the axle bends and loop up front plus two resonators so I don't think it was exhaust. The engine did stall, and I made the ignorant mistake of startng it back up, but it stalled with no driver input at idle so I assume at that point the damage had already been done.
Do you know what his repair consisted of? Initially they said it needed a new motor but then said they wouldn't know til they get into it, could just be sensors and bearings.
Do you know what his repair consisted of? Initially they said it needed a new motor but then said they wouldn't know til they get into it, could just be sensors and bearings.
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Here is the best advice you are going to get...lawyer up, and start arbitration proceedings. The wrangler can ford 30" of water. As far as the engine is concerned, there should only be ONE entry point for water...the intake.
Bring this photo and video to the arbitration hearing, and ask them to explain how they advertise the vehicle to be able to ford water, but deny warranty claims when a customers goes and does it responsibly.
Here is the video...both the photo and the video are official Jeep advertisements.
Water Fording | Jeep® Wrangler - YouTube
Ask your lawyer to file consumer fraud damages (triple damage in most states), false advertising, and any other damage he can think of. Guaranteed they will fold and fix your jeep. Just taking the case to arbitration will cost them $25K before you even argue the case.
Don't take it laying down.
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Water will never make it into your motor through the exhaust if the engine is running. Even if you stalled, assuming only for a few minutes, the water would need some decent pressure to enter the exhaust, climb up, fill the muffler (continuing to keep pressure on), flow down the exhaust, UP into the loops, UP again into the cats, Up again into the exhaust manifold, and finally into your engine....if you are a Seinfeld fan...."That my friend, is one magic loogie."
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How did they determine water mixed in with the oil? You said it wasn't milky did someone send the oil out for analysis to see how much water was in the oil? The seal they're referring to works two ways, it stops oil from leaking out, and water from coming in. It might be time for a lawyer as already mentioned. See where you get with Chrysler care.
A little OT but this is a perfect example of what happens when the dealer refuses to cover a warranty repair. The same applies to engine mods [which isn't the case here]. If the dealer refuses to perform work because of a mod, or driving through water in this case the customer is left holding the bag. In this case the dealer doesn't have to prove that driving through water caused the problem, the customer has to prove it didn't. Now if Chrysler care says no cigar to paying for the repair, and takes the dealers side, the customer will be out either attorney fees, repair fees, or both. That could be very costly.
Good luck with Chrysler care, don't be surprised if you have to pay up for a lawyer.
OP if you still have the vehicle in your posession I would get an oil sample and send it to a lab for analysis. Discuss with the lab what happened, and how they want you to draw an oil sample.
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Blackstone Labs
Use them for your oil analysis. Cheap and great evidence to make the dealer look like an idiot during arbitration. Also, if you have lab results proving there is NO water in the oil, the dealer is literally caught lying, which is consumer fraud. Consumer fraud pays 300% of damages PLUS attorney fees.
Use them for your oil analysis. Cheap and great evidence to make the dealer look like an idiot during arbitration. Also, if you have lab results proving there is NO water in the oil, the dealer is literally caught lying, which is consumer fraud. Consumer fraud pays 300% of damages PLUS attorney fees.
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Exactly why I suggested taking a sample. Hopefully the lab makes the dealer look stupid, and score one for the little guy. With an oil sample showing no water in the oil will probably force the dealers hand, if not it might sway Chrysler into paying the dealer for the repair. OTOH if there is excessive water in the oil, the OP will have a lot of explaining to do and might be SOL. I'd have it done if the oil in question is still in the sump.
OP keep us posted.
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357 Posts
You can also have the dealer drain the oil with you there into a clean container. Seal it and have them sign the seal. Then let it sit for 1 week and the oil and water will separate. Go to another dealer! The drive sounds worth it to me.
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The more I think about this the more I claim BS. Getting water through the crank pulley would mean you'd be leaking so much oil it would be spraying everywhere and you'd be constantly adding oil to the engine. Find another dealer.
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Agree, you will have positive internal pressure at that seal - unless something is wrong.
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I dont know if thats completly accurate.
The dealer is reimbursed for warranty work by chrysler. In other words the techs time is covered by Chrysler including parts. The dealer actually wins because they made money on the labor.
The dealer will submit the the findings of their inspections and submits it to chrysler.
Chrysler then approves or denies the repair. the dealer has no reason not to al least submit the claim....they make out on the deal.
Thanks for all the advice guys. The dealer opened a case with Chrysler, and I did as well just to confirm. The Chrysler inspector will be onsite tomorrow to investigate and (I assume) make a decision.
I expect that insurance is going to take one look at the bottom of the Jeep and deny my claim, that's why I didn't even consider going that route. But really, the more I think about it, the more I get pissed that that seal let water in (assuming the dealer's assessment was correct), sure seems like a defect to me. Can insurance really be relied upon for engine damage? Let alone when there is clear evidence of off-road use.
I do not have the Jeep in my possession, I did not expect that water made it into the engine because of the dry intake, otherwise I definitely would have drained the oil. I assumed sensors on the bottom of the motor shorted or were damaged by water, and that it would be a simple fix.
I expect that insurance is going to take one look at the bottom of the Jeep and deny my claim, that's why I didn't even consider going that route. But really, the more I think about it, the more I get pissed that that seal let water in (assuming the dealer's assessment was correct), sure seems like a defect to me. Can insurance really be relied upon for engine damage? Let alone when there is clear evidence of off-road use.
I do not have the Jeep in my possession, I did not expect that water made it into the engine because of the dry intake, otherwise I definitely would have drained the oil. I assumed sensors on the bottom of the motor shorted or were damaged by water, and that it would be a simple fix.
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It could turn into a waste of time, but the first step after the dealer is Chrysler customer care. In order to even file a consumer complaint there has to be a statement from Chrysler that the issue won't be covered as part of the warranty. What does bullying have to do with a consumer complaint. It's a simple consumer issue not a criminal investigation.
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