I'd be interested in hearing who's running toe out as well. I've recently done a similar set of upgrades to my '13 JKUR (full steering smarts upgrade) and have actually been having some issues with death wobble ever since doing so. That's after checking the torque on every nut and bolt I could think of, making sure my brand new track bar wasn't moving, etc etc. I had it professionally aligned but noticed they set me to 0.1 degrees of toe IN as opposed to the 0.5 degrees toe OUT the OP makes reference to that Steer Smarts apparently recommends. Wondering if making that adjustment would help me any...
Who is running Toe OUT?
I recently installed Steer Smarts front track bar bracket, Yeti XD track bar, XD top mount drag link, and XD Tie Rod. Noticed the install instructions specifically recommend 1/4" toe OUT (0.5 degrees) to prevent "death wobble". Everything I've seen for JKs recommends toe IN of varying degrees.
Curious to hear if any of you are running toe OUT and why? Seems like that would be suboptimal for tire wear on a JK, but I'm always open to ideas and learning new things.
It just seems strange to me Steer Smarts recommends toe OUT while factory and most other sources recommend toe IN. Initially I thought it may be a typo, but I saw in another forum where Andy from SS was helping a member and recommended setting toe out to troubleshoot their "death wobble" problem.
Curious to hear if any of you are running toe OUT and why? Seems like that would be suboptimal for tire wear on a JK, but I'm always open to ideas and learning new things.
It just seems strange to me Steer Smarts recommends toe OUT while factory and most other sources recommend toe IN. Initially I thought it may be a typo, but I saw in another forum where Andy from SS was helping a member and recommended setting toe out to troubleshoot their "death wobble" problem.
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I see that you are running 37” tires 1/16” toe-in is a good number.
Im pretty sure toe out would cause the DW not get rid of it. I just read the install directions on the yeti website and it just says to set the toe. There is no mention of specifically setting it at anything. Maybe you got old instructions with a mistake?
From their instructions on how to set the toe (https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0481/4649/files/Toe_Plate_Instructions_V2.pdf?316)...
"The Recommended Alignment to limit Death Wobble is ¼” (0.51°) Toe-Out"
"The Recommended Alignment to limit Death Wobble is ¼” (0.51°) Toe-Out"
I agree sounds odd, but that is what Steer Smarts is recommending. I'm not sure what directions you were reading but the current instructions "Special Considerations, Item 3" is the recommendation for for toe OUT. Its also not just their printed instructions, but like I said in my original post Andy from SS chimed in on another forum specifically recommending toe out.Im pretty sure toe out would cause the DW not get rid of it. I just read the install directions on the yeti website and it just says to set the toe. There is no mention of specifically setting it at anything. Maybe you got old instructions with a mistake?
Direct quotes from Andy in that thread:
"Toe should be up to 1/2 degree of toe-out. I see .05 and .75 and am hoping that's not inches. If you're using a tape measurer to do the alignment, you want 1/8" up to 3/16" (.32 - .48 degrees)".
"Yes, the industry as a whole recommends .5˚ of toe-in. From the studies that we've conducted, we find that .5˚ of toe-out is what works the best with our products, as well as with countering any type of potential death wobble situation. Everyone is entitled to set things up however they see fit, but our recommendations are not just pulled out of thin air, they come for studies and research that we've done with setting the vehicles up in different ways.
To clarify, this is .5˚ total, not per side. If you're doing the tape measure technique at home, you want between 1/8" and 3/16" toe-out (.32˚ & .48˚)"
So I'm still curious to hear if anyone is actually running toe out per Steer Smarts recommendation?
Sounds odd to me, but it’s easy enough to try it and see for yourself. You can always change it.
I’m skeptical of the claim that toe out prevents death wobble. If you have death wobble it’s because something is worn and needs to be fixed or replaced. Track bar bushings, ball joints, unit bearings, etc. Perhaps toe out could buy you more time to fix the fundamental problem, the same way a steering stabilizer can, but eventually you need to fix the problem.
I’m skeptical of the claim that toe out prevents death wobble. If you have death wobble it’s because something is worn and needs to be fixed or replaced. Track bar bushings, ball joints, unit bearings, etc. Perhaps toe out could buy you more time to fix the fundamental problem, the same way a steering stabilizer can, but eventually you need to fix the problem.
ThisSounds odd to me, but it’s easy enough to try it and see for yourself. You can always change it.
I’m skeptical of the claim that toe out prevents death wobble. If you have death wobble it’s because something is worn and needs to be fixed or replaced. Track bar bushings, ball joints, unit bearings, etc. Perhaps toe out could buy you more time to fix the fundamental problem, the same way a steering stabilizer can, but eventually you need to fix the problem.
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4wd quads are factory aligned toe out for stability and a less twitchy feeling and better high speed cornering on loose surfaces.
The huge down side of TOE OUT is excessive tire wear on road. If you align for 1/4” TOE OUT then added with the force of the tires being forced apart that TOE OUT could increase to 1/2” .
As for Jeeps and other straight axle trucks I usually shoot for 1/16-1/8” TOE IN so when you are driving, the FORCE on the steering gear from the road will push the front of the tires out (apart) to give you 0 “Toe in” or neutral.
As for TOE OUT preventing DW well, I dont agree at all with that but as mentioned it may buy you a bit of time.
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The huge down side of TOE OUT is excessive tire wear on road. If you align for 1/4” TOE OUT then added with the force of the tires being forced apart that TOE OUT could increase to 1/2” .
As for Jeeps and other straight axle trucks I usually shoot for 1/16-1/8” TOE IN so when you are driving, the FORCE on the steering gear from the road will push the front of the tires out (apart) to give you 0 “Toe in” or neutral.
As for TOE OUT preventing DW well, I dont agree at all with that but as mentioned it may buy you a bit of time.
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That's not necessarily true. Death wobble can affect even a brand new jeep just off the line. It's an inherent issue with solid axle vehicles that goes back for decades. If you take a brand new stock jeep and hit the suspension at just the right angle you will feel a "mini" death wobble which comes to a stop on its own. Granted it can and does get worse with worn front end parts, but the potential for it is always there in any solid axle vehicle.Sounds odd to me, but it’s easy enough to try it and see for yourself. You can always change it.
I’m skeptical of the claim that toe out prevents death wobble. If you have death wobble it’s because something is worn and needs to be fixed or replaced. Track bar bushings, ball joints, unit bearings, etc. Perhaps toe out could buy you more time to fix the fundamental problem, the same way a steering stabilizer can, but eventually you need to fix the problem.
FCA explains it as a "steering resonance" being hit at just the right frequency.... kind of like a high voice with the right frequency shattering crystal. Indeed FCA's fix for the issue is a newly issued steering damper. The steering damper kills the resonant frequency
The wobble is a steering resonance that causes the front wheels to wobble back and forth when the vehicle is at high speed. Mark Chernoby, chief technical compliance officer for FCA explained it to the Free Press as a resonance issue. One that could happen to any solid front axle vehicle. “If you bang it with that frequency it’ll just sit there and keep going forever. It won’t slow down, it won’t dissipate, and that’s essentially what we’re talking about here with the vibration in the new Wrangler,” Chernoby said. “When you hit a bump in the road, if everything is just right, this suspension can set off that resonance and what we started seeing is as soon as it got cold this past fall, early winter, we started seeing complaints.”
Report: FCA Has Fix for Jeep “Death Wobble”
The wobble is a steering resonance that causes the front wheels to wobble back and forth when the vehicle is at high speed.
www.wheels.ca
Thanks for the replies everyone.
Toe-in/Toe-out should make know difference when it comes to death wobble. Most rear drive vehicles call for toe-in. This is down to increase straight line stability, induce slight understeer and because the front wheels are being pushed they want the toe wants to move out.
Front wheel drive vehicles tend to be toe-out. This helps makes turning easier as almost all front wheel drive cars suffer from understeer and oversteer is never an issue. Also because the rear wheels are being pulled they want to toe-in.
On our Jeeps toe-in or toe-out really comes down to a personal choice though most people just run the spec. With our solid axle set up the toe setting really does not change under power as we don't have bushing like you would find in a A-arm setup. I imagine the factory calls for setting toe-in as a roll mitigation measure. Nanny's can control understeer much better than oversteer. The major down side I see to toe-out is that vehicle will tend to wander more.
Your best bet is to find a shop that specializes in Jeep alignments. This is especially true once you start modding.
Front wheel drive vehicles tend to be toe-out. This helps makes turning easier as almost all front wheel drive cars suffer from understeer and oversteer is never an issue. Also because the rear wheels are being pulled they want to toe-in.
On our Jeeps toe-in or toe-out really comes down to a personal choice though most people just run the spec. With our solid axle set up the toe setting really does not change under power as we don't have bushing like you would find in a A-arm setup. I imagine the factory calls for setting toe-in as a roll mitigation measure. Nanny's can control understeer much better than oversteer. The major down side I see to toe-out is that vehicle will tend to wander more.
Your best bet is to find a shop that specializes in Jeep alignments. This is especially true once you start modding.
The major down side I see to toe-out is that vehicle will tend to wander more.Toe-in/Toe-out should make know difference when it comes to death wobble. Most rear drive vehicles call for toe-in. This is down to increase straight line stability, induce slight understeer and because the front wheels are being pushed they want the toe wants to move out.
Front wheel drive vehicles tend to be toe-out. This helps makes turning easier as almost all front wheel drive cars suffer from understeer and oversteer is never an issue. Also because the rear wheels are being pulled they want to toe-in.
On our Jeeps toe-in or toe-out really comes down to a personal choice though most people just run the spec. With our solid axle set up the toe setting really does not change under power as we don't have bushing like you would find in a A-arm setup. I imagine the factory calls for setting toe-in as a roll mitigation measure. Nanny's can control understeer much better than oversteer. The major down side I see to toe-out is that vehicle will tend to wander more.
Your best bet is to find a shop that specializes in Jeep alignments. This is especially true once you start modding.
^^^ This is 100% correct. Pending tire size, just stay within 1/6" to 1/8" and you will be good to go. I was working on front end alignment racks, before most of you were borne. One does not want toe-out on your Jeep. My UTV'S, which I have had many, all had IFS and were designed for off road. The all required to-out. But they are a different animal.........
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