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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hummer is long gone.

The Toyota FJ is discontinued.

The Nissan Xterra is discontinued.

Land Rover seems to have sold its soul and gone all luxury vehicles.

The closes thing to competition for the Jeep Wrangler that I can think of at the moment is the Toyota 4Runner in one of its more off-road packages. But even that is probably more directly competing with the Grand Cherokee or Ford Explorer.

I wonder where the new Ford Bronco is going to fit in, if it's going to be more off-road vehicle than SUV. No details yet. Also, there were rumours that GMC would make some sort of Hummer spiritual successor, but there's nothing solid on that yet.

I also wonder how much we're losing out on price because there is no direct competition to keep the price of the Wrangler down. The latest rumour on JL Wrangler Forums is that all the prices are going up $2500 USD for the new JL compared to the JK. Boooooo.

(P.S. I didn't include the G-Wagen because no one can afford it.)
 

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There will be nothing truly like it. And the Toyota 4Runner isn't even close now. That would be like equating a Honda Accord is the same as a Corvette because it has 2 doors and drives on roads. Saying a 4Runner is close, but only lacks the convertible aspect (which is core to the Wrangler) is like saying the Mustang is the same as a Wrangler, it just lacks the off-road and winter driving capabilites, which some might find core to what it does.

There will be some overlap with other vehicles in some functionality, but both the Bronco and Defender will be more sedate and will look nothing like their previous concepts.

For anyone who is just looking for a 2dr or 4dr vehicle those arn't Wrangker buyers, they are just car buyers, that they cross-shop and entry level Wrangker Sport with a Kia Sportage, it doesn't mean they are truly competitors anymore than a G-Wagon is a true competitor with an Eventador because D-bags cross-shop those.

The effect on pricing is limited otherwise the Cherokee, Forester, Rogue, Equinox, Rav4, Escape, Sportage, Santa Fe would all be 'significantly cheaper' because it's the most crowded space in the vehicle market with competition from all sides and everyone making a CUV.

Also you assume that someone who has to spend a ton on R&D and efforts to get a new vehicle up and running is going to significantly be able to low-ball the market, which is less likely than them simply planting their flag right beside the Wrangler and try to get the same amount of money. In the case of Land Rover it will likely be much more expensive for a convertible Defender, so it's not going to put pressure on it either.

Another aspect, is that as long as the Wrangler demand and pricing remain healthy then so will resale, which greatly reduces the replacement cost after sale / trade-in.
 

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Jeep has a proven off-road model that works... and intimately understand the nuances of what makes it work and what customers want... and have spent enormous effort trying to get this next-gen version right (jury still out). Any competitor trying to break into a similar capability space at a similar price point will have an uphill battle... not to mention Wrangler, the marketing leading brand in the space they own will have a natural emotional advantage that will be very hard to destroy. It's theirs to blow if they ever decide to either cheap out or go with astronomical pricing.
 

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The Bronco and Defender are both potential competitors for the Wrangler, but since there are no solid details on either vehicle, the jury is still out. I disagree that the jury is still out on the Wrangler; there are enough details to know that the JL will be at least as capable as the JK, but probably more capable.

I am hoping both vehicles are true competitors, but I lack faith in both of them. I think the Defender has a better shot than the Bronco at being a true Wrangler competitor based on Ford's recent history.

Ford has shown that they care more about being different than they do about tradition or proven technology in recent times. The Ford GT/GT40 used to be a V8 w/ a manual tranny; now it is a V6 with an automatic tranny. The Mustang is no longer going to offer a V6. Ok, so maybe those examples are more about tradition, but what about the Raptor? The Raptor used to have a V8, and now it has a V6. Yes, the new Raptor is faster, but that is really the only advantage over the old Raptor. The V6 comes with several compromises that I won't get into right now. If all they cared about was speed, they could have made a more powerful V8, but they are too focused on being different from their competitors rather than being better. Same thing can be said about the aluminum F-150 beds. Yes they are lighter, but they are also weaker. If you see Ford commercials, they will act like the aluminum bed is a good thing due to light weight, but they never mention the decreased durability. Again, they don't seem to care about being better as long as they are different.

Sorry for the rant, but I am just trying to explain Ford's mindset and why I don't think they will deliver with the Bronco. There are rumors they are using a JKU as a benchmark, which is a good sign. However, that doesn't mean they will have a solid front axle. They might choose IFS just to be different from the Wrangler while ignoring the fact that it makes the vehicle less capable (like the V6 Raptor or aluminum beds). I can see it now: a Ford commercial comparing the Bronco to the JL and claiming that IFS is better because it is more comfortable, not even acknowledging the fact that it is less offroad capable. Also, there are rumors (which could very well be incorrect) that the Bronco will only be offered in 4 doors. That alone is enough to not make it a true Wrangler competitor.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
The Raptor used to have a V8, and now it has a V6. Yes, the new Raptor is faster, but that is really the only advantage over the old Raptor. The V6 comes with several compromises that I won't get into right now.
I'd be interested in hearing what you think those compromises are.

One advantage of the turbos is performance at altitude, but I'd like to know what you lose in exchange for that.
 

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I'd be interested in hearing what you think those compromises are.
I didn't post them before because I do not feel it is relevant to the discussion, but since you are the OP, I will oblige.

Turbos = increased complexity = decreased reliability = increased repair costs

Turbos inherently have lag, which means slower throttle response. The new Raptor does have an anti-lag system, but that is only available in Baja mode, and it results in poor emissions and fuel economy. This is a no-win situation.

The intercooler makes it impossible to mount a winch.

The 3.5l will not have near the same idle/low end torque as a V8.

And of course, there is the sound. The 3.5l sounds like a leaf blower.

Of course, like I said before, the specific reasons are irrelevant. The fact remains that Ford is so focused on being different that they are ignoring the compromises they have made, which is why I don't have faith in the new Bronco.

Another example that I forgot to mention in the last post is when Ford "upgraded" their 3.5l N/A V6 to a direct injected 3.3l N/A V6. The result was an engine that produced an insignificant increase in power, but now since it is direct injected, you have to deal with dirty intake valves. So basically, the new engine is less reliable with no benefit whatsoever.

I am not just talking about drivetrain choices either. I mentioned the aluminum beds which is not drivetrain related. I think we can pretty much guarantee there won't be a 5.0 Bronco, even if the previous Bronco had a 5.0. Honestly though, the Bronco doesn't NEED the 5.0 in order to be successful, just like the Wrangler doesn't NEED a Hemi, though a 5.0 Bronco and a Hemi Wrangler would be awesome. As long as the Bronco is small, has solid axles, and a removable top, I think it qualifies as a solid Wrangler competitor.

This is a bit off topic and has been mentioned before, but even though I would prefer a 5.0 Bronco, I think a 3.5l EcoPoop or even a 2.7l EcoPoop in the Bronco will give it an edge over the Wrangler in the drivetrain component. With the JL's currently confirmed engine options (2.0l turbo, 3.6l Pentastar, 3.0l EcoDiesel), the Bronco will have an advantage in terms of power. That is why I think it is more important than ever for the JL to have a Hemi option to compete with the EcoPoop Bronco.
 
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