Has your daughter-in-law ever driven a 4x4? What question(s) does she have?

...

Nevermind... Just buy whatever color she wants.

 

Rather than avoid, why not look at the best. Per JD Powers, please see below:
The 2015 Wrangler has continually been rated the most reliable year for the vehicle. Its four-wheel drivetrain gives it incredible off-road performance, especially among other vehicles in its class. It has strong engine options that give it the boost it needs in acceleration.
But maintenance and usage abuse also play a big part in this.

 

Thank you Old Dogger for your input. You are right look for the good years of course. As someone who unfortunately bought a Cadillac SRX with the much flawed engine it was well known how bad those engines by mechanics but I did not know before buying. Found out after warranty work(extended warranty saved my butt) got rid of it to Car Max (they bought it back) My jeep is first for me buying a CDJR product in my life hope it works out.

 

I think I've heard of issues of the 2013 model specifically, maybe someone else can elaborate.

 

Early 2012 saw a batch of bad Pentastar heads. FCA reacted immediately and issued a recall right away.

Personally, my 2012 was trouble-free, but my 2013 wasn’t. It had all sorts of issues: the cruise control would disengage while driving over bumps; the ESC light would come on and stay on, and then go away on its own; the battery died after 18 months; the infotainment head unit had to be replaced three times; the drag link and tie rod had to be replaced at 10,000 miles; the TIPM started to act up as soon as the warranty ended. The latter prompted me to finally get rid of the Jeep.

My 2009, 2012, 2014 and 2015 JKs were trouble-free.

The assembly quality on my 2018 JKUR Recon was garbage.

Overall, I’d say, 2014 through 2017 is JK’s sweetspot.

 

2015-2017 Gen 2 3.6 JK would be my preference

but honestly 3.8s are probably a safer choice on the used market.
most of the time we see folks come here with 3.6 issues after they buy it used.
the 3.6 has flaws that we just don’t see the 3.8ers experience.

if you get unlucky on the 3.6 and buy someone else’s problems you can be looking at the price of a remanufactured engine to get it repaired.

issues we see here surrounding the 3.6
oil cooler leak
coolant system overheating
cylinder head issues
rockers and camshaft replacement (rocker tick)

these are the things you need to be looking for. Ask them if any of these items have been an issue.
they can affect any year on the 3.6 but probably more prevalent in the 2012-2014 years.

also the rear brakes wear out faster than the fronts @ a 5:1 ratio on the 3.6 not sure about the 3.8s

 

With Jeeps the years to avoid should be considered within model…

I will start with first year Wranglers since older ones are not likely a good first vehicle
YJ 1987-1995

• NO airbags. Some mothers don’t like this; our son was impacted by this
• avoid pre 1991 as the carburetor fuel system was a nasty mess of emissions hoses
• 2.5 runs forever, but is gutless.
• 4.0 is fantastic and also runs forever, but may sound like a singer sewing machine
• AC is almost worthless
• can be rough riding, but this is also manageable
• May be too spartan for some

TJ 1997-2006

• Airbags!
• Decent highway ride
• More car-like interior
• decent AC and heat (downside is expensive to repair heater core and AC components)
• 2.5/2.4 still a solid motor, but still gutless
• 4.0 good but can have issues in mid-to-later years with cracked piston skirts ( not all my sons 2006 has 165,000 miles)
• frames are susceptible to rust if ignored, be very careful here as the outside may look ok, but the inside is toast.
• these are also n the older side and if you are not handy with a wrench the cost to fix/repair may be a lot

JK 2007-2018

• I’m not a fan of the 2007-2010 generation, poor motor and transmission choice by Jeep. Manual makes it tolerable.
• 2012 introduced the 3.6 and a way better automatic transmission, but avoid this year and mid-2013 do to head issues
• 2014 introduced a redesigned oil cooler that does appear to have cracking issues, but this may be due to lack of attention when tightening the oil cap.
• I think a later run 2017/2018 is a solid choice for a lot of reasons

- most model bugs are resolved by the end of the run
- newer so may have fewer miles and less wear and tear.

JL 2018-…

• I have no personal experience with these, but in general they are more refined
• I believe 2018 has bad weld issues
• I believe the manual transmission has clutch issues.
• most likely the price will be higher than older models

be careful when buying a used Jeep, some are abused and then prettied up for a quick sale to an uneducated buyer. Always crawl underneath and look for evidence of off-road use, it will be obvious.

good luck

 

Great info !! Thank you so much !

 

My sister-in-law has had a 2007 Rubicon for 15 years. She still loves it and as far as I know it has been trouble free.

 

Avoid 2000-2002,2005-2006,2012-2014,and 2018.Maybe 2007 also.But if you understand and know the issues when you buy this can all be thrown out the window.You just have to do your home work.GL

 

There are likely zero concerns for the 2012/2013 head issue left. It's a decade old. The issue, if it was going to happen, was early on, most under 20k miles.
OTOH, 2014 and up had an oil cooler issue that has not gotten better, and as such has drained stock of replacement coolers. Not enough info on the Dorman aluminum body replacement yet to call it a viable replacement IMO. Mine lasted 130k ish in my 2012, figured that was reason enough to replace it with stock OE version.
FWIW, my 2012 now has 211k miles on it. Auto trans.

 

There are likely zero concerns for the 2012/2013 head issue left. It's a decade old. The issue, if it was going to happen, was early on, most under 20k miles.
OTOH, 2014 and up had an oil cooler issue that has not gotten better, and as such has drained stock of replacement coolers. Not enough info on the Dorman aluminum body replacement yet to call it a viable replacement IMO. Mine lasted 130k ish in my 2012, figured that was reason enough to replace it with stock OE version.
FWIW, my 2012 now has 211k miles on it. Auto trans.

100% AGREE! My 2013 JKR has been trouble free, other than a oil pressure sender at 10K, covered by warranty. Most of these failed products have been updated improved, and should no longer be a concern. But anything can fail, on any vehicle on the road. So nothing is 100% safe.

 

Same for me and my '13 JK (ordered in Aug, had an AEV bumper, skids and dual sport build done and took delivery in December so after the --very brief--head problem) and everyone I know who has one. Only issue I've ever had is the radio sensor thing for AM/FM that happens to all models not just Wrangler. I'm at 60k miles. Change oil every 3k now, change diff and tcase fluids every 15k or after encountering a long swim offroad. I've heard of other '13s having goofy problems like e-brake being fickle but nothing remotely like aldo is talking about. At this point, fighting chassis rust is the only thing that worries me about achieving my goal of keeping / driving mine til my grandkids do an intervention and tell me I'm too old to use it. Absolute champ. Holding up better than the wife's German daily driver SUV and she doesn't crawl, climb or swim with hers .

 

I had the oil pressure sender at 16k, but the Jeep was 'aged out' of warranty as this was just last year! Out of an abundance of caution, I ordered a new 13 Mopar Oil cooler with all new sensors already installed. I ordered a new Mopar oil pressure sensor too and installed that on the original Oil cooler. I figure I now have a spare should my new one develop an issue in the future. I do all my own oil changes at 5K so I don't crank down on the fill cap. The only other issue my 13 had was the Engine Coolant Temperature sensor that went bad. Another easy fix.

 

First of all, your approach is right. Any maker is going to have defects come off the line. But generally once you get past the head issue in 12 and very early '13, the 3.6 Pentastar is a beast. You don't really appreciate it until you overland with a mixed rig group and just power through stuff Toyota's etc struggle with. Any '13 built after Feb of that year is not only ok but a bit extra stout in my (not insubstantial) experience. If you get the VIN number from any Jeep you're looking at you can look up the build sheet to determine date of manufacture. The only other issue post Feb 13's had was a potential for the heated side mirror wire to corrode. I inspected mine at the time and it was fine, and 10 years later is still fine. I never did the recall. Highly recommend 13's post Feb. Plan to drive mine 10 more years at least.

That said, I cannot speak at all to the switch to JL in '18. There's a lot of passion on both sides as people tend to hate the new company and project that onto the vehicle they produce. Also many experienced wrenchers on here are against all the electronics JLs have (with some good cause for a lot of people if you can't fix it in the field they don't want it). I have talked to people I trust who owned both JK's and JL's who have said the stock JL is hands down a better street driver but no better than JK offroad.

YM will always V

 

First of all, your approach is right. Any maker is going to have defects come off the line. But generally once you get past the head issue in 12 and very early '13, the 3.6 Pentastar is a beast. You don't really appreciate it until you overland with a mixed rig group and just power through stuff Toyota's etc struggle with.

Man-O-Man - you called it!

Background data - we retired in 2021. I retired from a position where I was certified to run the US power grid, wife was self-employed as a professional dog trainer. We have a little Toyota sports-car for hopping around town. We have the JEEP for doing JEEP-stuff, and we had a Ford E-350 1-Ton van set up to haul show dogs around the country. It could haul up to 4 Great Danes and the associated gear for the dogs and two people. When I retired, she retired too. We still have two Great Danes that have also earned retirement, earning #1 and#2 in the USA in 2018. The E-350 was finally showing signs of it's age (approaching 400,000 miles, take that chevy), so we traded it for new quartz countertops in the kitchen. Wife wanted another vehicle for herself. And through a friend of a friend we were offered a 2016 Toyota Tacoma TRD Off Road. It had 120,000 miles on it, and it had been garage-kept. But he had a new truck, and this one was now in the way. He said $20k if you take it away fast. In less than 24 hours we had it. The next day we were offered $30k for it, I think we did OK.

Now - on to the "Tale of the Tacoma"..........
We own both a 2015 JKU-R Hard Rock and a 2016 Toyota Tacoma TRD-OR 4x4. There is no comparison. Decide for yourself.

JEEP -- -- -- -TOYOTA.
3.6 V6. -- -- -3.5 V6.
5spd auto -- -6spd auto.
4.10 axles -- -3.9 axles.
35" tires -- -- 31" tires.

Just looking at the above data one would give the Toyota the advantage. More transmission gears and smaller tires should work better, especially for acceleration, torque to the ground and towing. One would be wrong. To further set the stage, the Jeep is always loaded with a few hundred pounds of gear. The Tacoma is mostly relatively empty.

The #1 issue with the Tacoma is that the motor has no low-end power. Out on the highway when going up the slightest incline, the Jeep will pull it easy in top gear at 2000 to 2500 RPM. On the same incline the Tacoma will downshift one or two gears and spin the motor at 3500 to 4000 RPM for the same incline.

#2 - The Jeep will pick a gear and stay with it unless a downshift is necessary. The Tacoma will not pick a gear.... constantly shifting UP-DOWN-UP-DOWN-UP-DOWN..... most annoying.

#3 - the Jeep has a hood and fenders that taper lower and narrower towards the front and with lowered fenders allows a fair view of the trail ahead when climbing a hill. And the Rubicon seat can be "Jacked-up higher" for an even better view. Not the Tacoma. The seating position is lower than the Jeep, is limited in adjustment, and cannot be "raised" any higher. And that hood-fender design is like the deck of a friggin Aircraft Carrier. Even sitting on a thick cushion, the forward visibility is severely limited.

#4 - who would expect a Toyota anything to get worse fuel economy than a Jeep Wrangler? Guess what. The JKU-R best the TRD-OR consistently by 1 to 3 MPG. Even when towing our Overland Trailer the JKU-R is nearly as good as the TRD-OR is empty.

#5 - WHO STILL USES DRUM-BRAKES ??? Toyota Tacoma, that's who. Rear axle is drum brakes! Yech.....

#6 - I admit that in Far West Texas we have some heat. We've had like 60 days over 100° F (38° C). The little Toyota sports car does best, probably because of the smaller cabin and windows. The JKU is next, and does pretty well. The Tacoma A/C system just flat sucks! Starting mid-morning, you need to run the A/C on MAX to cool the cabin. Once cooled, it sort of keeps up. By mid-afternoon it is struggling even so. And if you park it to go shopping or something, then go out after it has baked in the sun for a while, just be ready for about 30 minutes of misery until the A/C starts to get things cool again. SUCKS is just a polite word for how I really feel!

In fairness I have to say that the Tacoma does one thing better than the Jeep. It can haul a bed full of trash to the dump. Even if the Jeep were empty of all cargo and with the seat folded down it still cannot carry what the Tacoma can carry.

The bottom line is that my wife loves it. It was love at first sight, she said straight up she wanted it even before we knew what we now know. She loves the seats, she loves the driving position, she loves the stereo, she loves the color, she loves that it can haul her two Great Danes to the vet, can haul 100-pounds of dog food..... so it isn't going anywhere. We initially hoped it could take some of the load off the Jeep where the off-road capability wasn't needed when camping. The rear suspension is totally incapable of towing our trailer even if the motor were up to it.

We understand that for about $500 we can get the Tacoma's motor "retuned" to perform better. And yes, we can sink a few thousand $$$$ into the suspension and make it work. We've decided instead to go ahead and wear out this Jeep, then get a new one when the Hurricane motor becomes available. We just came home from a 12 national park in 24 days camping trip. The Jeep is still running strong.......

 

Same for me and my '13 JK (ordered in Aug, had an AEV bumper, skids and dual sport build done and took delivery in December so after the --very brief--head problem) and everyone I know who has one. Only issue I've ever had is the radio sensor thing for AM/FM that happens to all models not just Wrangler. I'm at 60k miles. Change oil every 3k now, change diff and tcase fluids every 15k or after encountering a long swim offroad. I've heard of other '13s having goofy problems like e-brake being fickle but nothing remotely like aldo is talking about. At this point, fighting chassis rust is the only thing that worries me about achieving my goal of keeping / driving mine til my grandkids do an intervention and tell me I'm too old to use it. Absolute champ. Holding up better than the wife's German daily driver SUV and she doesn't crawl, climb or swim with hers .

I also change mine every 3000 miles.. It will add to engine longevity. EVIC oil change reminder, will shorten engine life. The factory knows this, and likes it because they can sell more expensive engine parts.......... This is where they make their higher percentage of profit!

 

People are going to call you a conspiracy theorist, but you're not wrong. In fact I would say it's as much about the OEMs trying to placate the branded dealerships as it is the parts. Vehicle sales margins for a branded dealers are crazy low. Around a $1kd for every $30k ish. Recurring service is where they become profitable. Dealer labor rates can be as high as $140 an hour where I live. They're not paying the tech anything close to that and the capital cost of equipment is either amortized already or is tax deductible, so services is where they profit. Don't even get me started on "core charges" .

 

Looks like everyone's pretty much covered the 2012 black hole, which is the only serious build issues I think the line has had. I've owned two JKs and two JLs and had many friends with AMCs and I have seen issues from complexity steadily increase with the Wrangler. Put simply, a more complex system is less tolerant of "hands off" maintenance approaches and will give the appearance of being unreliable. So an older, well-maintained vehicle is going to be as good or better than a newer, not-so-well-maintained vehicle, assuming both have similar build quality. So in addition to avoiding the build black holes, look at maintenance records and any signs of good maintenance habits (relatively clean engine bay, fresh bushings/washers, no gunk over maintenance seams, etc.). Good luck!

 

Thanks to all of you! Now I know I subed to the right forum LOL This kind of feedback and discussion I am used to from my KTM dirt bike days. Opinions but a lot of facts too. It will be a JK for sure she gets(25k) price max. I just finished 1K miles on my '23 Rubi Unlimited and have used the 4h and 4L and sway bar disconnect and it preformed great. Used to a F250 diesel ride and do not care that it rides the way it does, its a JEEP. Thanks again

 

I bought my 2015 JKU24S used after researching what years to avoid....here is a link to another post by me on another thread . There are links in my post to some data on jeep years
Buyer's remorse after purchasing 4xe

 

I bought my 2015 JKU24S used after researching what years to avoid....here is a link to another post by me on another thread . There are links in my post to some data on jeep years
Buyer's remorse after purchasing 4xe

Same here, only I talked with my BF’s best friend who had his own Jeep Repair/Mod company. I’m 3018 I bought a 2016 Wrangler Sport. No major issues. I’ve had to replace the oil cooler (2022) and original battery (2023). Your link should help a great number of peeps.

 

I have 2 2011's, 4 door bought off the lot and a 2 door bought used with 100k miles. Both have been absolutely solid. The 3.8 is a little weak for the 4door unless you regear, but is perfect for the 2 door. I find the 2011 very easy to work on and maintain. Good luck!

 

I also have the 2011. It's the 70th Anniversary Addn. The 3.8 works for me since all the speed limits in my neck of the woods aren't higher than 60mph with most at 50mph. I've never had mine to the shop with 85,000 miles. The 3.8 is a good engine but it needed 50 more hp. After 60,000 miles I had to start adding a quart of oil in between oil changes. I change my oil at 5000 miles. Off road the 3.8 is more than enough engine. I get on average 18mpg. Lot's of info on the 3.6 to help you, but unless your driving on 70+mph interstates, I wouldn't be afraid of the 3.8 at all. Good Luck!

 

Sorry off topic: Have you gone up in tire size or regeared. I get 18 on trips, 13-15 in the city.
Last year at 130k I changed out the timing chain, fuel injectors and fuel pump and man did she feel brand new again. Wished I had done the timing chain at around 70k. Sounds way to early but I could have sworn I could feel the slack. Just thought I'd put that out there.

 

I traded my 13 JKU Sport with 140k miles back in 2017. Bough it used with 40k miles or so back in 2015. Only issue I had with that one was 3 out 4 axel seals and a clogged up heater core. Never fixed the core. Added a bunch of mods to it, wheeled the crap out of it and enjoyed every single minute with it. I had other 4x4 vehicles after that one but not a single one like that Jeep so i bought another JKU in 2021. 2018 JKU Sport S, used as well with 30k miles on the clock. I've spent even more in this one than my first Jeep but mods only Only issue i've had is a damn axel seal. Just the nature of the beast when you offroad with bigger tires i guess. I went with the last year JK because i trust JK's a lot more than the newer Jeep model when it comes to reliabiity, simpler, less electronics and a super mature aftermarket, i try not to buy anything older than 3 years from the current year. It's 2023 so if buy another Jeep it will be a 2020 model min with low miles, if you're buying a JK, JK's has been discontinued since 2018, you might think everybody who had issues with the 12's or 13's had fixed already so year to avoid in the JK side is not very relevant at least in my opinion. I've had older Jeeps, (XJ's, WJ's) and for the love of god they require a lot of maintenace. I want to buy one for my 15 yo son, and more likely i'll look into an early 2 door JK with the 3.8L engine.

 

@ Mike-5: Over the years I've briefly owned a couple of Toyota ICEs. For me, none ever got as good of mileage as comparable American vehicles. They seemed heavier and not as athletic. The exception would be the Prius for what it's designed to do. Despite that, I also believe that considering all the electronic garbage, recent Jeeps are not nearly as good as they should be. Until Toyotas actually become cheaper than Jeeps, offering equal or better capability and easier maintenance, there's still no contest. Despite the tax incentives, I've been reading that 4Xe sales are beginning to plummet. The Covid car era is proving to be very sticky.

Buyer's remorse after purchasing 4xe

From the perspective of one who hasn't been parted with his money, it's just as entertaining as it is a warning for buyer beware. Thank you early adopters and the tax incentive.

https://www.cars.com/research/jeep-wrangler_unlimited_4xe-2021/consumer-reviews/

Note that the more recent reviews are not as favorable as the earlier ones despite the increase in MSRP. Why?

 

"Per JD Powers " Their reviews are based on 90 day ownership

 

Our 2012 JKU is far from stock and routinely gets 18.5 mpg average, better than 20 on freeway, don't know why others don't aside from low gearing.
*

 

For me it was 41 years Merchant Marine. It's amazing how fast everything can be gone. Have to recalibrate for what my retirement will be like. Thought I had a nice one to look forward to. I hope a Jeep will be part of it the whole way, but a nicer one than I have at the moment.

 

God bless you for that. I get seasick, so it was Army for me. No problems flying or jumping.....

This JEEP is at 70, 205 miles right now. In two more years I will consider either overhauling the motor (before it fails) with a mild supercharger....... or sell it and get one with the supposed to be coming Hurricane motor. So far I've not heard anything bad about the Hurricane. The mechanic at JEEP did say to avoid E-Torque.

Here's hoping your retirement is everything it can be! Best of luck to you.

 

Thanks for your thoughts. It's running pretty well. I don't smell a rich mixture but I understand what you're saying. Would you get a code for a O2 sensor problem? I did change her oil and filter today.